[penllawen]

The new typesetting and design (especially the table design) cut No Future page count by about 16 pages.

That’s the one! Thanks. I totally blanked on the name there.

[Shadowhack]

Errata has to not alter the layout.  Exactly for that reason.

I hadn't thought of page numbers in other books, but obviously that is an important thing.

There is an interesting example of this on page 53 of the new PDF, where compare PDF shows that the layout person subtly shrunk the line spacing between the lines on the right hand column so all the stuff would still fit on that page.  I can't see it at all with my naked eye, but the thumbnail image Acrobat creates to show the difference makes it obvious.

Say what you want about the rules themselves, but much respect to Matt Heerdt (layout) and the art directors Brent Evans and James Mosingo.  The book really does look great; easy to read text with clear headings, sidebars, etc.   I find the border graphics a bit busy, but overall the impression is very good, and I love that purple color.  They did a bang up job, I think. 

When that second errata file hit his desk, there must have been places where Matt Heerdt was like "Jesus, Mary and Joseph, you want me to squeeze WHAT into that column?!"  :-)  I don't envy his job.

I can sympathize with this because I have actually done it. Editing a large book like the CRB is problematic at best. Even with a great tool like Indesign and everything you can do with it re organizing a major work like the CRB is a massive undertaking and maddening to boot.

[penllawen]

I can sympathize with this because I have actually done it. Editing a large book like the CRB is problematic at best. Even with a great tool like Indesign and everything you can do with it re organizing a major work like the CRB is a massive undertaking and maddening to boot.

All the more puzzling, then, that the CRB was let out the door in a state where, within mere hours, all the online Shadowrun forums had numerous examples of (a) unresolvable ambiguities and gaps and (b) exploitable rules (eg. Anticipate, spirit's hardened armour, that quality that grants Edge on Logic tests, etc etc)

[Shadowhack]

When I first heard about all of the things that were wrong with the book I was skeptical. I didn't think that a company owning a property as popular as this one could get away with releasing something that folks claimed was so broken. I still don't think it is broken per say but it took me playing through a few combats, including all of the various permutations, before I could see what people were talking about. To really fix this book would not require a complete re-write but it would require significant reformatting.

Earlier I said that it would be a major pain in the tail to do that. With that said that pain would only exist for a few days, maybe a week, if doing it along with other things. A really dedicated person could do it in a single day if that is all they focused on and they had all of the issues and locations for those issues in the pdf laid out in front of them. That is just edits, if they had to re-think systems and playtest those revisions it would of course take longer.

[Marcus]

The fundamental assumption of AR v DR doesn’t hold up, why have a system where pretty much all it does is nothing? Even the majority of CRB examples include AR V DR doing nothing. Fixing that is going to require a broad spectrum of changes as it touch’s a lot of things.

They have already issued a lot of errata and have LOT more to go. Re-writing the CRB is what’s needed. Even things as simple as codes of honor are so vague as to be meaningless. Then other side you have major over reactions, off handed weapon attacks the addiction rules, far to many things then totally negate the edge system.

The edge system as whole need meaningful overhaul and months of play testing to hit some kind or reasonable standard of playability.

[Reaver]

The fundamental assumption of AR v DR doesn’t hold up, why have a system where pretty much all it does is nothing? Even the majority of CRB examples include AR V DR doing nothing. Fixing that is going to require a broad spectrum of changes as it touch’s a lot of things.

They have already issued a lot of errata and have LOT more to go. Re-writing the CRB is what’s needed. Even things as simple as codes of honor are so vague as to be meaningless. Then other side you have major over reactions, off handed weapon attacks the addiction rules, far to many things then totally negate the edge system.

The edge system as whole need meaningful overhaul and months of play testing to hit some kind or reasonable standard of playability.

So, still not a good time to change to 6th edition then huh? Especially when things are running smoothly (for us) in 5th edition. (we usually wait until the first round of supplemental books come out anyways)

[Michael Chandra]

Eh, SR5 played fine even though there's tons of errata waiting for it, and I doubt people will receive the rule rewrites they demand, especially not when they're basically complaining GMs get more leeway to properly agree with the players how they want to play things. So they will never be satisfied.

Mind you, I'm going to write a bunch of houserules though. But SR6 is less broken than SR5 was, most houserules will simply be 'I prefer it altered'. Not gonna write 22 blog posts with houserules this time (unlike SR5. Yes, I counted them.)

Now I do agree that I am waiting for Firing Squad to hit before I'm starting up a full campaign. =) I didn't switch from SR4 to SR5 until Street Grimoire.

[Marcus]

The fundamental assumption of AR v DR doesn’t hold up, why have a system where pretty much all it does is nothing? Even the majority of CRB examples include AR V DR doing nothing. Fixing that is going to require a broad spectrum of changes as it touch’s a lot of things.

They have already issued a lot of errata and have LOT more to go. Re-writing the CRB is what’s needed. Even things as simple as codes of honor are so vague as to be meaningless. Then other side you have major over reactions, off handed weapon attacks the addiction rules, far to many things then totally negate the edge system.

The edge system as whole need meaningful overhaul and months of play testing to hit some kind or reasonable standard of playability.

So, still not a good time to change to 6th edition then huh? Especially when things are running smoothly (for us) in 5th edition. (we usually wait until the first round of supplemental books come out anyways)

They aren't gonna fix 6e. As with TM for most of 5e they fool themselves into believing that nonsense in the CRB works. When sighted directly they follow Chandra example and hide behind the idea you should just house rule to fix it. After all why would we ever want a working system? Just make the GM fix it. 5e is functional so stick with it. Maybe a couple years priorities will change and SR will get the same attention Mech is getting now. Looks like the next couple missions seasons will be dual stated so that's something.

[Reaver]

Lol, Not saying 5e was perfect.. noty by a long stretch.

And, house rules are a staple of my table for every game system ever. (I know my players, I know what interests them, and what bores them. Encumbrance Rules from DnD for example... axed those right out the window...)  So nothing new there for SR 5e either. And I expect to use house rules for 6e as well...

As long as I can figure out the intent behind something, I can usually figure out if we  "need it" or should "change it" or just "avoid it".... But from some readings of postings, it sounds like the intent has been obscured in some rules... But that could also just be "new edition syndrome" talking.
(every time any game undergoes a change, there is always a group that vocally oppose it.) <Sometimes with good reason!>

[Michael Chandra]

One of my houserule sets definitely will be around chargen, where you get two options: Explicitly double down on the restrictions to Magic Priority's side effects, or ease up and boost several Priorities.

[calibur12001]

I've been running Shadowrun since 1st edition. You people make me hate this game. You and Catalyst. So long to your pile of shit. I'm never running this game ever again.

[lunatec]

I've been running Shadowrun since 1st edition. You people make me hate this game. You and Catalyst. So long to your pile of shit. I'm never running this game ever again.

So much anger. So misplaced. 1st and 2nd editions seemed less broken because you had less to compare it to. This is a new thing. So ok, you don't like it. Good for you. You can still play all the older versions of the game and nobody is going to show up at your door to confiscate them.

The real question is the usefulness of this kind of post. Posted or not posted, our response would be the same...only now you have left this post on my doorstep, flaming, like a spoiled child having a tantrum.

[Reaver]

I've been running Shadowrun since 1st edition. You people make me hate this game. You and Catalyst. So long to your pile of shit. I'm never running this game ever again.

So much anger. So misplaced. 1st and 2nd editions seemed less broken because you had less to compare it to. This is a new thing. So ok, you don't like it. Good for you. You can still play all the older versions of the game and nobody is going to show up at your door to confiscate them.

The real question is the usefulness of this kind of post. Posted or not posted, our response would be the same...only now you have left this post on my doorstep, flaming, like a spoiled child having a tantrum.

Its the typical "You pissed in my Corn flakes!/Killed my Sacred Cow!!" response that massive changes to a loved Genre/Game/Movie/Book can invoke. Especially when said changes are not what one expected....
And is also a typical Twitter post By the By


You'll find them in everything that comes out with a fan base... *Cough* Star WAS *Cough*
Sometimes, that type of post is the most succinct, direct expression of how someone feels...




(Note, I still don't have 6we... Have not even looked at it, so I have no actual comment on 6we quality at this time. But, boy oh boy have I felt that exact way about some things Hollywood has done of late, and if rumors are true, want to continue to do..) 

[Singularity]

I've been running Shadowrun since 1st edition. You people make me hate this game. You and Catalyst. So long to your pile of shit. I'm never running this game ever again.

While I get not liking the current edition, I take it you still have all those older editions still? If so, use the ideas (or not) from 6th edition (like the new Cutting Black book) and keep using those older systems. Heck, use the adventures as well (like the upcoming Toronto campaign), and just spend a bit more time on them by switching out stats/gear for things available in the older system. /shrug

[Trigger Lynx]

No one asked for my opinion,  but I'm just gonna throw it out there =]

I'm new to 6th edition, haven't ran or played it, but I look forward to both. I've played 2nd and 4th editions religiously , spanning over two decades of experience. If I had no prior knowledge of the system/setting and 6e was my first foray into the Sixth World, I'd have taken my book back to my FLGS and asked for store credit. 

It's not an issue of disliking certain game mechanics,  it's an issue of incompleteness and inconsistency. You can't make assumptions on how a vaguely written rule works if the examples pertaining to the rule are contradictory. I know from having played previous editions that starting Essence is 6, that's been a "sacred cow" from the beginning. But nowhere in character creation is this stated. Rules pertaining to Burnout and Essence loss affecting Spell/PP are also omitted. I keep reading about an errata that changes unarmed DV from (Str/2, round up)S which isn't explicitly stated in the CRB to a static 2S, which isn't even found in the errata list.  The crunch for Laser Sight says that the AR boost is already factored into the weapons block for firearms with the integrated accessory, but neither does it or the crunch for other weapon accessories state if they have or have not. Which leads one to have to guess if a weapon already has the AR boost factored in for it's integrated Smartlink and Gas vent system,  or if it's added on during Step 2 of combat resolution. Due to the information presented (or lack thereof) in the weapons/accessories write-ups, there is no satisfactory definitive answer. I could go on, but I feel my point has been made.

I understand having to leave some content on the editing room floor for the sake of page count, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The aforementioned omissions are very important to the system for it to work properly and should have been treated as such. Love it, like it, or hate it, SR6 is a subpar product at it's core which should never have been released in it's current state.  Without a significant overhaul of the material which may as well be an entirely new printing, no amount of after-market errata is going to change that.

"Just House Rule it" you say? That's fine by me, but first you need rules you want to change in order to do that.

"Rule X has an effect on Rule Y, but since we don't really like Rule X and we rarely use it anyway, but we like Rule Y and we use it every session, let's just remove Rule X this session for ease of bookkeeping and as long as it doesn't negatively impact our fun and/or game balance, we'll just get rid if Rule X altogether for future game sessions. Deal?" That's a House Rule. Completely fabricating a rule set to play a game because the CRB doesn't have them is not. My role in the producer/consumer relationship is to pay for the developer's product, not to do their job for them =]

FWIW, this isn't an attack on the Dev Team. If it comes off that way, it's not meant to be. It's difficult to judge meaning and intent from the written word, and as I'm proofreading my post even I have to admit it's coming off a bit dickhead-ish =] But please believe me when I say that sincerely that is not the case. I'm merely stating my observational opinion because I love Shadowrun, and while my individual opinion may not matter, it's clear that my opinion is also shared by the vocal majority. My loyalty is to the brand, not the company that has the license to it. And that company dropped the ball on this one. Assuming the product's profit margin even warrants a second printing with complete and consistent errata, I shouldn't have to pay for a brand new CRB because the first one was garbage. I will, because it's Shadowrun, and I want the license holder to produce more Shadowrun products for my enjoyment. I won't presume to speak for others, but I'm confident a decent percentage of the consumer base will do the same as well.  But if even a percentage of the company's profit is based on the consumer bailing you out to give you a second chance based on brand recognition rather than product quality, the company might want to reevaluate who's getting paid to do what and why they're still being paid for not doing it.

EDIT: spelling