[Xenon]

In previous edition you had different spells for different attributes and it was clear that you could cast two different spells (for example Increase Charisma and Increase Willpower) on the same target. But also if you cast the same spell twice (for example Increase Charisma) on the same target then they would not stack.

In this edition you only have one spell and you select the attribute at casting time. Do you treat this as if you can only cast the spell on one target once (to increase either Charisma or Willpower) or do you still treat it as before where you can cast Increase Attribute twice (to increase both Charisma and Willpower) on the same target.


I read it as if you cast Increase Attribute twice on the same target then they will not stack, but I've read several posts now where people seem to suggest that you can increase both attributes at the same time by casting the same spell more than once...?

Thoughts?

[DigitalZombie]

I think RAW is somewhat silent on the matter. But I think its allowed to have willpower, charisma and body running at the same time on a target.
Increase/decrease attribute and elemental armour are the only spells which can affect different stuff with the same spell (I think).

But I can understand why you would limit it to "only 1 specific spell can affect a person at a time".

[Michael Chandra]

The caster decides which attribute
to target before casting the spell. [...] They can select
how many net hits they actually apply to the target
to increase the selected attribute, at a rate of 1
point of increase per net hit (maximum bonus +4)

So each spell picks the attribute, and each spell can max give a +4 (and of course we still have augmented maximum). There's no limit listed to stacking anywhere in the spellcasting rules, though it seems fair to introduce the restriction that when you receive 2 similar boosts to the same thing, only the highest applies. (So no combining 3 Combat Sense casts for +massive DR, or two +2 Attribute spells for a +4.) But I see nothing in the rules that would restrict two Increased Attributes being active on different attributes at the same time. I can boost two people's armor, so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?

[Xenon]

...so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?

Because you are sustaining the same spell twice on the same target.


(also because of balance reasons, but mostly because as far as I can tell you have never been allowed to stack the same spell twice on the same target in any other edition... not sure why it would be treated different in this edition)


Same goes with for example... elemental armor. Do you think the the intention is that you we are allowed to stack this spell twice (for both cooling armor and warming armor at the same time) on the same target, as well? (honest question)

[Michael Chandra]

I refuse to follow the assumption that when they decided to simplify the spells, they deliberately decided to nerf them instead, yet at the same time deliberately did not go through the effort of actively writing that down in the rules. It's not the same spell. It's two different variations of it, even if it was just one spell formula. Just like you can cast multiple spells through double performances of the same ritual, and it won't suddenly clash.

Also: There's nothing supporting that you cannot stack spells to begin with.

[Xenon]

Fair enough. House rule territory it is


Stacking of spells
The same spell being cast more than once on the same target will not stack. Instead only the instance with most net hits will count. This include spells such as Increase Attribute, Decrease Attribute and Elemental Armor, even if they affect different attributes or different elements.

[Michael Chandra]

What is the purpose of your nerf, and why are you not allowing specific-attribute spells if you're going to nerf people down to worse-than-SR5 levels?

[Xenon]

Part because of balance issues. Increasing and sustaining up to +4 each on multiple attributes, including but not limited to both drain attributes, on the same target by using the same spell seem a bit overpowered for just 5 karma.

But mostly I fear that once you start to allow stacking multiple instances of the same spell / augmentation / drug on the same subject then you might end up with a lot of unforeseen complications...

[DigitalZombie]

What is the purpose of your nerf, and why are you not allowing specific-attribute spells if you're going to nerf people down to worse-than-SR5 levels?

He is allowing "specific Attribute spells". And even with the nerf the Attribute spells are still in a good spot.
Its not like spells were considered weak in 5th, either.

1. Instead of 8 different spells, you now have one ri.. spell to rule Them All.
2. With the new focused concentration quality you can have 3 of Them active at once. With Xenons nerf it will just be on 2-3 different team mates. -(alright both editions still have sustaining foci, but still.)
3. Compare it to the matrix equivelant infusion of matrix Attribute. There you still have to buy Them separaretely, and they are ALOT Harder to pull of. Looking for +4 Firewall? Thats 8 hits on the test. Looking for +4 str on the troll adept, 3 hits. (To be fair the drain is a lot higher, and its tougher to cast on cybered team mates).


Personally I like what they did to the increase/decrease Attributes. Atleast the part about not having to buy each one seperately.  And I think they should have done the same with the other spells too. Like healing spell, Amp it up and it becomed a cooling heal. Armour spell Amp IT up and it becomes a chilling armour, etc.
But as it stands, increase Attributes are too Strong in my opinion. Nerfing them with a max of one per runner seems cool. And also helps the team in general


At the same time the karma Cost for the spells could increase somewhat. Which also would make the magic priority choice a big tougher. As players wouldnt be too tempted to choose a lower magic priority, and then buy the remaining spells for cheap.

[easl]

...so why would I not be able to boost one person's logic and willpower?

Because you are sustaining the same spell twice on the same target.

(also because of balance reasons, but mostly because as far as I can tell you have never been allowed to stack the same spell twice on the same target in any other edition... not sure why it would be treated different in this edition)

Same goes with for example... elemental armor. Do you think the the intention is that you we are allowed to stack this spell twice (for both cooling armor and warming armor at the same time) on the same target, as well? (honest question)

I have no idea what the intent was, but if a Mage wants to give herself -4D to all actions instead of -2D, or allocate two of her (3 max) focused concentration qualities (instead of one), in order to give another two boosts instead of one, I'd allow it.  It doesn't seem unbalancing.

Even the case of adding a +2 to a +2 to give +4 in the same attribute. With 12D or larger dice pools, that's essentially inferior to just recasting the spell (i.e. so you're only sustaining one spell for the +4 bonus, instead of two spells for the +4 bonus). So I don't see much of a game balance issue with letting a Mage stack it.

[Finstersang]

Fair enough. House rule territory it is


Stacking of spells
The same spell being cast more than once on the same target will not stack. Instead only the instance with most net hits will count. This include spells such as Increase Attribute, Decrease Attribute and Elemental Armor, even if they affect different attributes or different elements.

Implemented this one as well, specifically because of the new design of the Increase Attribute spell and the ongoing misbalance reagarding the interaction with drain.

Restricting Increase Attribute to one appliance per target breaks up the standard optimized buff loadout of 2x Increase Attribute and 1x Improved Reflexes. This helps to bring back some resemblance of balancing to the spell and to mages in general, and it further incourages them to try out other buffs (or buffing other players instead of themselfes).

[Lormyr]

Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).

You want to appropriately balance magic?

1). Set "mortal" Magic Attribute to a maximum rating of 12, and Initiate Grade to a maximum rating of 6.

Why: Unlimited growth potential is one of the most prominent reasons magic overshadows other options, which all have limited growth.

2). Make Foci have a maximum rating of 4, and that 4 being an artifact level item and appropriately rare. Dramatically increase both the karma and nuyen costs. At least triple the current costs, and I would go even higher.

Why: After a certain point in character progression, which occurs much faster than you might think if you are not experienced with the system, Foci becomes exceptionally more efficient than directly spending karma on your Magic Attribute or Initiate Grade. They also stack on top of the unlimited growth potential, which is ludicrous.

3). Limit the maximum Force of spirits which "mortals" can summon to their Magic Attribute or 8, whichever is lower.

Why: In SR6 even Force 6 is overbearing for most standard opposition that is not magic heavy.

4). Replace the current Immunity to Normal Weapons auto-soak rule with additional soak dice equal to Force.

Why: Auto soak is absurdly powerful, especially in SR6. The current consideration is to reduce the auto soak to 1/2 Force, but additional dice equal to Force will result in less average soak at all Force levels while not necessarily auto-negating damage from small arms at higher Force.

5). Remove the ability to command more than one Spirit at a time.

Why: What is worse than one Force 6, auto-soaking 6 damage, almost entirely risk free minion? Three of them. All the time.

[CigarSmoker]

I wish those changes were official ^^ thats really good ideas @Lormyr.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I agree with many of Lormys limits though I don’t think a cap on magic is necessary as it probably happens in like only 5 campaigns world wide anyways. So you are damaging the thematic element of magic for a virtually non existent issue. If I were to put that limit in if have some method to break it like a ritual that takes years and years to set up. Not full time ritual but like 12 summer solstices in a row you have to do z. So it would exist but clearly be out of the range of PCs in anything except the most unusual campaigns.

Also I’d just ditch force for spirits. Have 2-3 levels you can summon the top end being PR4 level enemy but tankier. I’d of ditched force for spells without adding amps. You want a fireball that is base damage magic/2+1 learn that specific spell. Sort of like 1-2e there was fireball and hell blast. Then I’d give the spells pre preqs so you can’t just jump to the top end spell from nothing. Nothing too crazy but before learning hell blast You need at least 3 other Combat spells or something.

But I disagree that mages need attribute boosts. I’d of removed quickening from being on people, sustaining focuses entirely and focussed concentration or had focussed concentration reduce the penalty and not stack with psyche.

Mages are the bag of tricks class they can do a crazy range of things. But, none of that should be permanent or pseudo permanent. That’s what balances them. Yeah they can on the fly spin up a physical mask, but it limits them to do so. Yeah they can make someone stronger but it limits them to do so. The various ways to sustain without penalty break that and give the bag of tricks class consistent buffs which are the only thing non mages have over mages.

Adepts/mundanes smaller range always on. Mages bigger range but temporary and limiting to their other abilities.

[Lormyr]

I don’t think a cap on magic is necessary as it probably happens in like only 5 campaigns world wide anyways.

I don't have the first clue how other folks play in their home campaigns, but I can tell you that in Chicago Season Missions I encountered at least 11 PCs that had Magic Attributes in the 10-13 range, including my Mystic Adept. This was just in Columbus, Cincinnati, and Dayton too.

But I disagree that mages need attribute boosts.

In a general sense of the word, no one "needs" them. My perspective is that regardless of balance, it feels both unfair and unfun when you have a character unable to benefit from Attribute Augmentation without disrupting your primary role (I'm looking at you early SR5 Technomancer) and you sit down with a bunch of folks with hugely augmented stats.

SR6 is a lot better balanced about this than SR5 ever was, primarily due to the reduced benefit of most non-attack roll, non-drain resistance Attributes due to core system changes.