[topcat]

And the TL;DR is:

For pellet rules, see Flechette Ammo (pg 262).

As an aside/opinion piece here.... I rather like that flechettes (and shotgun pellets!) are dangerous in this edition.  They very much were not so in 5e.

I guess it depends on how you were using them in SR5.  My favorite shooter builds used shotguns (typically the Mossberg or Enfield) and flechettes.  Want to see a dodgy PhysAd cry?  Mention "full auto burst" and "wide spread" in a single attack action.

[Finstersang]

Regardless, the rules for Flechette dovetail perfectly with what Xenon was saying.

Obviously, not everyone's gonna see things exactly the same way about how rules otherwise should have been.

They don´t. With the current rules, Flechettes are just a shittier version of APDS. Which is bad because

• APDS are already a bad option that´s not really doing what it´s supposed to.
• APDS is vastly different from (Shotgun) Flechettes, so Flechettes having practically the same effect isn´t fitting.[1]

This doesn´t mean that the Shotgun Spread rules from 5th Edition should have a comeback, BUT it should definetely stay up for discussion if the current rules and stats for flechettes (and linked to this, Shotguns in general) really fit their purpose. F.i. an Errata [2] or an updated version in the Combat supplement [3] could keep in mind that the effectiveness of Shotgun Shots usually peak at certain range before the scatter and wind resistance reduces their effectiveness. This could be easily translated into game mechanics by modifiying AR and DV differently over the different range categories. This would give Buckshot Flechettes a true mechanical purpose without going back to muzzle spread horseplay. Shotguns only have 3 range categories, so it´s really not that much "paperwork" either. 

[1] I mean, one could argue against argument this by acknowledging that the rules for APDS don´t really fit their purpose as well...
[2] *Gasp!* Mechanical improvements to the holy RAW via Errata? That´s not what we don´t pay these folks for!
[3] *Double-Gasp!* Mechanical changes to the Core Rules in a Supplement? We only do that if it´s absolutely necessary!   

[Hephaestus]

Regardless, the rules for Flechette dovetail perfectly with what Xenon was saying.

Obviously, not everyone's gonna see things exactly the same way about how rules otherwise should have been.

I agree to a point. They do jive with what Xenon said, for flechette rounds designed for normal weapons.

In Real Life...
Some .44 magnums can chamber .410 shotgun shells, which would fit with that line of logic as .410 is one of the smallest commercially available size of shot. But, standard 00 buck shot fires 9 .33" steel balls in a tight spread. That's roughly the equivalent of nine 9mm bullets fired simultaneously.

SR6 Game Mechanics...
Take the 00 buck example above. Nine pellets would be just over two BF bursts from an SMG. With the current rules for BF, that would put a +2 DV on a 3 DV gun twice over at -4 AR.

And there is nothing stating I cannot take flechette ammo for any other gun, so why would I bother using a gun that:
- Is no more concealable than other options?
- Is no more easily available than other guns?
- Can't hit long ranges?
- Can't go full auto?

Even the rules for shotguns don't take into account their intended purpose as lead spreaders:

pg. 255
Shotguns
The stats for these shotguns are for normal slug rounds. Shotguns can take top, barrel, and underbarrel accessories.

Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are cheaper than ARs. And even then, they lack a ton of utility that ARs (and one or two of the SMGs) bring to the table.

In 6th edition, shotguns are just cheap, crappy, oversized rifle wannabes with nothing to set them apart or make them useful.

[Finstersang]

In 6th edition, shotguns are just cheap, crappy, oversized rifle wannabes with nothing to set them apart or make them useful.

Agreed. And the main reason for this is that Flechettes is one of the 3 items in the gun section that just don´t work out (the other 2 are APDS and Imaging Scopes. I´m not hating here, most of the other gun mods and ammo option work just fine - in fact, that´s why these 3 stick out that much).

Ok, incoming wall of text. I´ll try to put in some TL;DRs in boldface.

For APDS and Imaging scopes, there are already many little (sub-)discussions quelling in different threads. On the matter APDS, I´d really like to point out Xenon´s musings in the "Combat in SR6?" thread (besides my two cents about the matter, of course ). I think that an update/errata like this would really help to bring back some verisimilitude to APDS Ammo and other items like this. I understand that the Errata process will focus first on closing gaps and fixing nonfunctional rules due to "change blindness" and editing blunders, but if "broken" stuff like Impaired Attribute cheese or Analytical Mind is up for errata, so should be stuff that´s not really "broken" in the sense of "game-breaking", but because it offers no real value and/or not being able to do what it´s expected to do.

TL;DR: It´s not a shame if some mechanics and items don´t really work as supposed, but they should be up for errata discussions and improvement.

So, what is Flechette "supposed" to do?

Unlike APDS (which has the word "armor-piercing" right in its name), that´s not so easy to pinpoint. We first have to ask ourselfes where the name comes from, why there were additional rules for "Flechette Damage" for at least 2 previous Editions and why there are other weapons besides shotguns that talk about Flechettes. AFAIK, it was originally a little "nod" to Gibson´s Neuromancer trilogy. One of the characters, the "Razorgirl" Molly uses a flechette pistol, not unlike the Ares Viper Slivergun. There´s also one in Snow Crash. So yeah, flechettes (crossaint for "little arrow") are just a staple of the Cyberpunk genre - that´s why there are additional rules for them. However, these weapons have very little to do with shotguns. They are modernized versions of Needleguns. TBH, the description of the Ares Viper Slivergun handles this ambiguity quite well by making clear that the Ammo just "count as flechette ammunition and are bought as such, but they aren’t interchangeable with any other flechette weapon." Mechanically, this means that you have to pay a bit more for your Ammo and can´t load the gun with other Ammo types, which is a worthy price given the stats of the Slivergun.

TL;DR: Flechette rules are part of SR for Cyberpunk nostalgia reasons, and you should differentiate between Needleguns and Shotgun flechettes.

So, what about Shotgun Flechettes? If you look at the present to find a "realistic" approach, you´ll run into a problem: There´s a shitton of Shotgun rounds, and many of them use the word "flechette" somewhere. There´s a whole scene of Shotgun nuts out there who come up with the craziest stuff you can put into a shell and shoot at stuff, animals and people. And slug rounds can be Flechettes as well: Instead of multiple small darts, there´s just one medium-sized Dart. So, what about Shadowrun itself? In previous Editions, Flechettes were promoted as a kind of futuristically improved Buckshot round. They had spread rules (somewhat unrealistic, though...) and they had increased damage at the cost of increasing your opposition´s armor as well. They also had reduced effectiveness at longer ranges - in fact, there were 2 rows in the range table for Shotguns loaded with Slugs and for Shotguns loaded with Flechettes. So: Closer is better, unless you want to use the spread to hit more enemies or make it harder to dodge. It´s also interesting to have a look at the Stats of the Ares Viper Slivergun in 6th: It has the same AR as the Predator, but stronger in Close Combat and weaker on the other 2 ranges. While I wouldn´t use the Slivergun as a 100% model for Shotgun Flechettes (see above), this hints at flechette darts being stronger on short ranges, but more affected by range. Another effect of Flechettes in previous Editions was the increased Armor of the target. I could go on a tanget here on why negative armor penetration didn´t really represent that issue very well mechanically, but the intent was clear: Flechette is bad against Armor (Which is one reason why it should at least not have the same effect as APDS). Interestingly, the armor-increasing effect was also applied to Frag Grenades, whose damage was marked as (fl). Soooo, I´d say that´s some stuff we can work with!

TL;DR: Judging from SR5 and partially SR6, (Shotgun) Flechettes are supposed to be: Better on close ranges and worse on higher ranges, better against low-armored targets than high-armored targets and possibly harder to dodge because of the spread

I don´t think that all 3 of these Criteriums should necissarily be represented mechanically, but one thing is clear as day: The current RAW does not very well at representing any of them. And apart from the verisimilitude , the tradoff between 1 Damage and 1 AR really isn´t worth it: It´s the same problem as with APDS, but this time, the window for getting a net advantage out of your ammo choice instead of just losing 1 Point of Damage (2 if you keep in mind that you could have used ExMun instead...) is even smaller.

So, what could be done instead? Here´s loose bundle of ideas; Some can be combined, some could possibly work as a standalone solution as well:

• Different Increases/Decreases of the AR at different Ranges, f.i. +2 on close and near range, -2 on the rest. (Similar to the Slivergun, but with more "punch" over the first 50 Meters. This would strengthen the idea of Shotguns serving as close-to-near range firearms)
• Different Increases/Decreases of the DV at different Ranges, f.i. +1 in Close range, no change in near range, -1 on Medium ranges... (see above. Note that this might also fit as an additional rule for the Ares Viper SG and other "Needlers")
• Dice Pool Modifiers or AR changes on Near and Medium Ranges in favour of the shooter, due to increased spread. Kinda goes against the first two bullet point, but it´s worth considering. However, it should be combined with other effects that favour close ranges more, at least when it comes to raw damage.
• Weaker against armor/Stronger against unarmored
• F.i., increase damage by 1 if the modified Damage Code is higher than the target´s armor rating, but decrease damage by 1 if the modified Damage Code.
• F.i., increase damage by 1 if the AR/DR comparison would give you an Edge, but decrease it if the target would get an Edge.
• F.i., Increase damage by 1-2, but the target rolls with the full DR instead of body alone (A similar effect might also be added to the Ares Viper SG or even Frag Grenades!)
• Something with wild Dice, maybe? 
• Combinations/"remixes" of the ideas above

Last point: Remember the "scene of Shotgun nuts" I mentioned earlier? Have a look at the stuff that´s cooked up and sold as Shotgun Rounds, it´s crazy! There´s a type of round that shoots flaming Magnesium! "Ball and Chain"-Rounds for cutting down bushes and small trees! There´s specialized Slugs for different purposes (I believe there was some kind of "Door-busting" Round in 5th Edition as well?). Hell, with the new system of status effects, even traditional Buck/Birdshot rounds - which existed in the previous Editions, but only as strictly worse versions of Flechette rounds - can be made worthwhile. Burn them, Blind them, Hobble them, Pepper them up! Apart from fixing Flechettes, this is the direction Shotguns should go in the future to keep distinctive use among the other shooters: A vast array of crazy Ammo types that inflict status effects or have other special purposes 

[Hephaestus]

Agreed. And the main reason for this is that Flechettes is one of the 3 items in the gun section that just don´t work out (the other 2 are APDS and Imaging Scopes. I´m not hating here, most of the other gun mods and ammo option work just fine - in fact, that´s why these 3 stick out that much).

Ok, incoming wall of text. I´ll try to put in some TL;DRs in boldface.

+1

Aside from those custom loads, there are companies mass producing both taser rounds and fragmentation grenade rounds for standard open choke shotguns.

I think the watering-down of weapon stats in this edition has forced the developers to try and fit unique guns like shotguns into a very flat distribution of stats, and it shows. Like I said before, the only benefit of a shotgun is that its cheap, and in a game where players can start with 450,000 nuyen for gear and 'ware, being cheap is a useless quality.

[Xenon]

Since everyone and their mother wear armor in the future shotguns are by default loaded with slugs... which behave much like regular firearms anyway.

Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are...

In SR6 you are often allowed to pick things (like magical tradition, metatype, weapon, armor etc etc) based on style rather than pure mechanical advantages. If shotgun fit your character, then you should probably get a shotgun....

[Hobbes]

Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are cheaper than ARs. And even then, they lack a ton of utility that ARs (and one or two of the SMGs) bring to the table.

And Dual Wielding Remington Roomsweepers is Awesome.  Don't forget that part.

[penllawen]

And Dual Wielding Remington Roomsweepers is Awesome.  Don't forget that part.

Dual wielding = cool
Sawn-off shotguns = cool

::counts on fingers::

I’ve done the maths, story checks out everyone!

[Shinobi Killfist]

Can you now that they have been classed as shotguns instead of pistols. The rules on off hand and multiple attacks is sparse. Like I see no restrictions other than no edge in your off hand, so go ahead and dual wield panther assault cannons. But I may be missing a rule somewhere.

[Xenon]

I'd say it is pretty obvious that you hold the roomsweeper with one hand. There is even a picture of it.....

I'd also say it is pretty obvious that you hold the Panther XXL with two hands. There is even a picture of this one too.....

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don’t find it obvious from the roomsweepers picture how many hands are used to shoot it. It looks like a pretty big honking gun with a large under barrel grip area.

 And even if it were obvious there are dozens of guns without pictures more without than with. Which sub machine guns are more 2 handed in appearance than one handed since we don’t have the picture.  Some I may know from past editions but others I don’t. Random decisions based on my feeling doesn’t seem all that helpful for my players.

[Xenon]

All firearms you can dual wield: all hold outs, all light pistols, all heavy pistols, all sub machine guns and the "heavy pistol" roomsweeper shotgun. There you go.

If you are ambidextrous then it is probably better to dual wield a BF firearm (for wide burst anticipation) and a melee weapon (for wrest).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

If you're a lead farmer, you can even dual wield LMGs...

[Hephaestus]

Since everyone and their mother wear armor in the future shotguns are by default loaded with slugs... which behave much like regular firearms anyway.

In SR6 you are often allowed to pick things (like magical tradition, metatype, weapon, armor etc etc) based on style rather than pure mechanical advantages. If shotgun fit your character, then you should probably get a shotgun....

There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.

And to be fair, I'm not saying that shotguns need to be god cannons, but if you are going to separate them into their own category, you should do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.

Right now they have a two sentence blurb that hand-waves away the use of shot, and other inconsistent rules across the guns themselves:
- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...
- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.
- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).
- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.

There are 4 shotguns listed, incomplete/inconsistent rules for all 4, and no costs for ammo listed (not in the book, not in the hot-fix, and not in the updated PDF). This is an unfinished section of the CRB that needs review and fixing, not a stylistic choice that people are whining about.

[Xenon]

There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.

There is a difference between Distinctive Style and playing Dwarf or Ork or Human because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics, or picking shamanistic magician or hermetic magician because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics or that you buy a shotgun, heavy pistol or SMG because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics.

...do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.

First of all they are relatively cheap (which do matter if you for example are awakened or emerged and start the game with resource priority E).

The advantage of the defiance T-250 is that it clear glitch jams with a Minor Action. Good if your dice pool is small enough that risk of glitch is relatively high.

The advantage of the PJSS Model 55 is that it have the highest AR of all weapons in the 3-50 meter range category (shared only by the Praetor SMG, but compared to Praetor PJSS still have higher AR at the 51-250 meter range).

The advantage of the roomsweeper is that it is deal the most damage of all other heavy pistols, including Ruger Super Warhawk.

- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...

What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?

The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).

In SR6 it also have the same ammo capacity, it also easier to conceal, it also have reduced range (increased close AR and decreased near and medium AR), and it also have decreased DV - very similar to its SR5 counterpart I'd say.

- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.

IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either

I think the intent is that you just use the Spare Clip cost and fill it with ammo.

- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).

Yes, this is a copy pasta mistake from SR5. In SR6, SA already mean that you fire twice and a SA "burst" is only 2 slugs anyways. The "BF (short)" listing should be removed.

- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.

It is correctly listed as SA mode, which in SR6 mean you fire twice in one attack. It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well.

Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table. If you load it with flechette then you reduce DV by 1 and increase AR by 1 across all three range categories.