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Combat is SR6?

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Hephaestus

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« Reply #270 on: (19:31:06/08-12-19) »
Or you can go with Hephaestusī idea of APDS denying Edge gain from AR/DR.
You already gain that advantage by using an imaging scope....
Wait, what? Using an imaging scope makes your target's armor literally and completely pointless even within its newly defined functionality? Why? Was it not enough that they took our soak dice from us?

Just looked it up. Finsterang is right, if you use a Take Aim minor action, you negate the target's ability to gain edge from higher armor. And the wireless bonus is to share the LoS view of the scope with your team (no mention of network limitations), so does that mean they benefit from this bulldrek as well?

Xenon

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« Reply #271 on: (02:10:10/08-13-19) »
Its only for the shooter, it require that you spend a minor action to get the effect and it is only used to negate edge gain from the defender - it does not help the attacker to gain an edge over the defender (but loading the weapon with APDS would).

If someone hunker down behind cover your long range sniper guy can take his time to line up a shot and hit the parts of the target that is not covered. I think it is a pretty cool feature actually :-)

Finstersang

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« Reply #272 on: (04:09:11/08-13-19) »
Or you can go with Hephaestusī idea of APDS denying Edge gain from AR/DR.
You already gain that advantage by using an imaging scope....
Wait, what? Using an imaging scope makes your target's armor literally and completely pointless even within its newly defined functionality? Why? Was it not enough that they took our soak dice from us?

Just looked it up. Finsterang is right, if you use a Take Aim minor action, you negate the target's ability to gain edge from higher armor. And the wireless bonus is to share the LoS view of the scope with your team (no mention of network limitations), so does that mean they benefit from this bulldrek as well?

Itīs Xenon who pointed that one out  ;) I donīt have the book, I only comment based on the bits I know. And the more I know, the happier I am that I havenīt paid CGL money for this dumbsterfire.

I mean yeah, one of the benefits of firing through a scope might be that it can help you find a less armored spot or something like that. Also, using the Scope is RAW most advisable in the Range Categories where the Gun is worst - which sounds fitting at first until you realize that this means that itīs rarely usefull when used with an actual sniper rifle on a long distance shot. BUT on a close range shot, using the Scope would be mechanically advisable, because thatīs where Rifles are crap (please tell me that thereīs a restriction on how close you can be to your target to profit from an imaging scope...).

Once again, itīs all so badly thought through. For imaging scopes, a simple AR increase (in the higher range categories) or godforbidd, a dice pool bonus would have been the right choice. Instead, they go with this terrible idea that would have been more fitting for Armor-piercing options.
« Last Edit: (04:15:54/08-13-19) by Finstersang »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #273 on: (04:42:25/08-13-19) »
Or you can go with Hephaestusī idea of APDS denying Edge gain from AR/DR.
You already gain that advantage by using an imaging scope....

I still think it would be better if APDS reduced target's armor rating by 2.
(the effect would be similar to +2 AR as it have right now, but it would have a bigger impact on targets with hardened armor).
Hardened Armor is yet another subject I can't comment on due to NDA... =/

How does 'nullifies 2 autohits of Hardened Armor' sound as possible houserule, so that against Hardened Armor it's actually +1 DV instead of -1 DV? But only if they have strong enough for 2 autohits?
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Finstersang

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« Reply #274 on: (06:39:02/08-13-19) »
Or you can go with Hephaestusī idea of APDS denying Edge gain from AR/DR.
You already gain that advantage by using an imaging scope....

I still think it would be better if APDS reduced target's armor rating by 2.
(the effect would be similar to +2 AR as it have right now, but it would have a bigger impact on targets with hardened armor).
Hardened Armor is yet another subject I can't comment on due to NDA... =/

How does 'nullifies 2 autohits of Hardened Armor' sound as possible houserule, so that against Hardened Armor it's actually +1 DV instead of -1 DV? But only if they have strong enough for 2 autohits?


Goes in the right direction as well, bit I‘d really say that the Damage should not be decreased until there is some really fat advantage tied to it. This one boils down to "Itīs shittier bullets against all targets except Dragons and Spirits" right now. It also depends on if or how you want to houserule Hardened Amor.

Honestly, since the effect of the imaging scope seems to have purpuse the mark as well (not really an advantage for long-distance shots, but against targets with a good defense value), Iīd say just swap the 2 main effects around and improve the balance a bit:

  • Imaging Scope: +2 AR and +1 Die on the Attack roll (after all, it requires a Minor Action to use) on all ranges except close and near range.
  • APDS Ammo:No reduction of the Damage Value, Target canīt get Edge from the AR/DR comparison, maybe also something about Hardened Armor (F.i. ignore 1 point of the damage reduction i.e. increase damage by one)
  • Ceterum censeo: The 2-Edge-per-round-Limit has to be destroyed.
« Last Edit: (07:07:46/08-13-19) by Finstersang »
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Xenon

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« Reply #275 on: (11:18:46/08-13-19) »
Minus 1 DV make a lot of sense for APDS, keep that.

Beyond that I would say anything that affect the targets armor or defense is the way I would have gone. Let's review the options.

1.  -1 DV, +2 AR (as-is)
Against both normal armor and hardened armor and compared to regular ammo this give +2 AR and -1 DV.

This feels bad because:
- Regular ammo have a higher chance to not be fully stopped by hardened armor
- Easier to gain edge against a low armor targets (Flechette should give bonus AR, not APDS)

This feels good because:
+ Small entry and small exit should normally deal less damage
+ A heavy armored target will have less chance of generating edge against you.


2.  -1 DV and reduce targets armor by 2.
Against normal armor and compared to regular ammo this is the same as +2 AR and -1DV (which is fine and mechanically the same as it is today). Against hardened armor and compared to regular ammo this is the same as +2 AR and same net DV (-1 DV but also +1 DV from one less auto hit, this is one more DV than it have today) and +1 DV (-1 DV but -2 armor, which is two more DV than today) when it comes to if it may penetrate at all.

This feels bad because:
- Easier to gain edge against a low armor targets.

This feels good because:
+ Have have a higher chance to not be fully stopped by hardened armor
+ Small entry and small exit should normally deal less damage
+ A heavy armored target will have less chance of generating edge against you.
+ Less effect on targets with no armor


3.  -1 DV, +2 AR and nullify 2 hardened auto hits.
Against normal armor and compared to regular ammo this is the same as +2 AR and -1 DV (which is fine and also the same as today). Against hardened armor and compared to regular ammo it is the same as +2 AR and +1 net DV (-1 DV but +2 DV due to two less auto hits, this is two more DV than today), but still require one DV more when trying to penetrate at all (same as today).

This feels bad because:
- Regular ammo have a higher chance to not be fully stopped by hardened armor
- Easier to gain edge against a low armor targets.

This feels good because:
+ Small entry and small exit should normally deal less damage
+ A heavy armored target will have less chance of generating edge against you.
+ Deal extra damage against hardened armor


4.  -1 DV and deny edge for defender during AR/DR.
Against normal armor and compared to regular ammo this have -1 DV (same as today, but without +2 AR), but it also fully prevent high armor targets or targets behind cover to gain edge from their DR. Against hardened armor and compared to regular ammo it will have -1 DV (both for damage and for penetration) and no bonus AR, but it will prevent high armor targets from gaining edge. By doing this, modifier from scope should probably be changed to something else.

This feels bad because:
- Regular ammo have a higher chance to not be fully stopped by hardened armor

This feels good because:
+ Not easier to gain edge against a low armor targets.
+ Small entry and small exit should normally deal less damage
+ A heavy armored target will have no chance of generating edge against you.


If we combine the good things from above and discard the bad then we end up with something like this:

5.  - 1 DV, deny edge for defender during AR/DR and ignore 2 points of hardened armor
Against normal armor and compared to regular ammo this have -1 DV (same as today, but without +2 AR, will be less efficient against low armor but this is a good thing), but it also fully prevent high armor targets or targets behind cover to gain edge from their DR. Against hardened armor and compared to regular ammo it will have same DV and it will have one DV higher when it comes to penetration. It will prevent high armor targets from gaining edge.

This feels bad because:
....

This feels good because:
+ Not easier to gain edge against a low armor targets.
+ Small entry and small exit should normally deal less damage (but not against targets in hardened armor)
+ A heavy armored target will have no chance of generating edge against you.
+ Have higher chance to not be fully stopped by hardened armor


There you have it. Go with option 5. Discuss it. Thank me later ;)
« Last Edit: (11:21:34/08-13-19) by Xenon »