[Marcus]

You guys may have variants of decker/rigger that you think work for 5th, but I haven't seen I'd be willing to play thus far.

[Hobbes]

You guys may have variants of decker/rigger that you think work for 5th, but I haven't seen I'd be willing to play thus far.

Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman.  As it turns out, you can't do that in 5th edition.  You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.  17 Stat points right there.  May want to have more than 1's in Str, Char, Body, Will.... So, that's an A or B in Attributes.  And then you need two totally different sets of skills.  Gunnery and then a Gun Skill.  Standard Runner Skills.  Driving and some Build/Repair stuff.  Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security.  Skills B is barely adequate.  Resources, again, at least a B to get the RCC, VCR, and a Vehicle and all the trimmings. 

Once you've convinced your GM to let you use Sumto10.  You then need to convince your GM to let you do something with your Bad Ass ride more than just driving the team around, Pink Mohawk style please.

Or you just make a Decker with a Drone Swarm.  Easy and done. 

[Marcus]

Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman. 

^^^^ This.

[kainite311]

So I see a lot of comments going back and forth on how easy/hard it is to spot the correct gun/cyberware/whatever icon that is running silent (and how random/not random with 'filters'). So I am going to propose a direct question about locating hidden icons.

If you are looking at someone in AR, and clearly see they have cybereyes and a gun in hand, but no matrix icons representing them (which leads you to conclude they are running silent), can't you simply do your matrix perception check to specifically look for the silent running items (either gun or eyes) based on where the icon should be in physical AR space and not worry about other 'random' running silent objects? Take it further using image link from the team street sammy while your hiding around the corner, since you know the actual physical location of the item your looking for via the image link... or a better variation of what I am trying to get at (knowing where to look, as with meat vision perception check, which I believe gives a bonus to boot)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Spotting hidden icons is unplayable as pure RAW.  The GM simply has to throw hackers a bone, perhaps in the way you're asking about.

See also the I.C.U. quality in Data Trails.

[kainite311]

I guess I always read that  quality to mean you just got a +2 bonus, you still have the basic ability to spot the hidden icons. Or am I missing something here on RAW when making a matrix perception check knowing exactly where to look, and exactly what to look for?

And I guess barring that, then maybe just apply some common sense, otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...

[Redwulfe]

Yes, to go strait to the spot icon test you only need, "is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there." one way to do this is to do a matrix perception to see if any icons are running silent in your vicinity, but this is when you get into the other problems, i.e. random and features.

In the book every device has a Icon. for eyes all of the devices are built into the eye so it makes since that it is one icon but not the glasses and the eyes. Same with a gun the internal smartgun and gun would have the same icon as they are built into each other but I don't think the laser sight and gun would or the external smartgun link and gun would.

These icons can run silent which makes them hidden to being automatically spotted within 100 meters of you. You can view this as they are invisible or that they are overlooked or whatnot. The fact of the matter is they aren't readily spotted. And since it requires a hit on a matrix test or clue that they are in the vicinity you can not see/notice them for some reason. I choose invisible because that is easy for players to understand. In the game they are said to be hidden.

The book says if you know a feature of an icon you can try and spot it, otherwise you must try to spot a random Icon amongst the multiple icons that may be running silent in the vicinity. This is where I don't agree with just being able to say "I am hacking his eyes." One, I don't think saying I want to hack his eyes is "knowing a feature of the icon", you know a feature of the device though. I do think that term "feature of an icon" could be interpreted in several ways. I do not think other people are wrong for interpreting it another way I just don't agree with that myself.

To me a feature  of the icon could be its location or a feature of its form as per the form dictates function concept in matrix architecture. I usually allow players to give me the general category but they still won't know its exact features unless they have done something to gain that knowledge in their legwork or such. To me both cybereyes and glasses could have the same form in the matrix their features would be where they are generally located on the body. I allow the vicinity on question to be narrowed to a smaller area than 100 meters to help in searching, this is why the icons location can be used but since both glass and cyber eyes would still be int he same vicinity the decker trying to spot the hidden Icon could be put on a random allocation to which icon they actually spot. This is what I call layering icons. it is used to fool a narrowed search vicinity. Remember narrowing the search vicinity is something I do and not in the book. Your vicinity is 100 meters always according to RAW.

You can also use an actual feature of their icon like that it is literally an eye or pair of glasses. Maybe your persona has a monocle and that is what his cyber eyes look like, so a feature would be the chain or something that can help the decker tune into noticing or spotting the icon like it should be his eyes. I honestly believe this is up to your GM to defines since I don't think it has been clarified.

And I know this sounds hard on the decker but I have deckers listen to my verbal cues all the time and guess features of icons they never saw. Just the other day I was describing an old farmstead as the sculpting of a host with a fence and a gate that lead into the main area in front of the farm house and the decker said "I need to find the cameras are their any birds on the fence?" Well that just happened to be the exact sculpting of the camera, so he knew a feature and I gave him the spot roll for them. but I would not have let him say I am looking for the cameras and get the roll as that is the device he is looking for not the icon. he also took the cue of the gate and realized that this correlated tot he guard sack and new to look for the lock on the gate to find the hidden maglock on the gatehouse. Deckers in my games have also named features that belonged to the wrong hidden icons but that was part of the fun.

If eyes or cameras were features of the icon then their wouldn't be any reason to have a random assignment for the spot test when it came to icons that where close together since you would always know a feature to focus in on, that being the name of the device. But Icons don't always look like the device so why would the physical device other than knowing where it was at, help you spot the icon? This makes since to me, so this is what I use. it also keeps one of the things that I loved about the matrix alive and that was the creativity of designing your iconography and the iconography of the host. Just naming the device means that the iconography is not even needed anymore and I say bully to that.

In any case spotting take a complex action and then starting the hack, unless you go strait for the brick takes a complex action and all off these complex action being used is why bricking is not as efficient as one might think. More than likely it will take multiple attempts to successfully brick a device if it is properly defended and by that time a free action shuts your decker down.

[Xenon]

You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.

Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?

Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security. 

A Wheelman without a drone swarm is a lot less vulnerable to matrix attacks.

to get the RCC

A Wheelman without a drone swarm have little to no use for a RCC.

Just go for a commlink with a decent Data Processing and Firewall rating.

That way you can also get a sim-module modded for hot-sim so you can use hot-sim VR and hot-sim Jump In (as-written the control Rig only come with a sim-module that is not modded for hot-sim and the RCC doesn't come with a sim-module at all).

If you are looking at someone in AR, and clearly see they have cybereyes and a gun in hand, but no matrix icons representing them (which leads you to conclude they are running silent), can't you simply do your matrix perception check to specifically look for the silent running items

"the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there". The scenario you describe is more than enough to qualify for this.

If you have an idea of what icon you are looking for then you just take the test to locate it. This is also not limited to just 100 meter range. You can spot hidden icons anywhere in the matrix as long as you know at least one feature of the icons you are looking for.

Randomly searching for icons in your vicinity is just one thing you may do when you have no idea at all if there might or might not be any silent running icons in the vicinity.

Spotting hidden icons is unplayable as pure RAW. 

I think you are too hung up on the scenario the book describe when you have no idea if there are any hidden icons out there and you have no idea of what icons you are looking for.

"the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there." = If you already have some idea that a hidden icon is out there then you can stop there.

"You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception Test; asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity" = If you have no idea that any hidden icons is out there then ONE way you can find out (there might or might not be OTHER ways you can also do it) is by looking for all silent running icons in the vicinity (to see all of them you only need a single hit which basically make them as obvious as spotting a neon sign or a running crowd with normal perception).

If you have no idea what you are looking for then you need to pick randomly by all the silent running icons around you. If you know at least one feature of the icon you no longer need to pick the icons at random. The more explicit information you have of the icon you are looking for the easier it will be to pin point.

It is like googling. If you don't know even a single feature of what you are looking for then you would get every single internet page and you get to pick them at random (but if you don't know anything about the icon you are looking for in the matrix you may want to at least narrow down the search to just icons that are in your vicinity). But normally you know at least one feature of what you are looking for and can use that to narrow down the search criteria. The more explicit information you have the easier it is to find the correct page you are looking for.

"Lucky for you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you."

...otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...

Don't worry. It doesn't work that way.
Also, Data Trails even explicitly clarified that this doesn't work.

In the book every device has a Icon. for eyes all of the devices are built into the eye so it makes since that it is one icon but not the glasses and the eyes.

If you are explicitly looking for the device icon of the "eyes" then you would not randomly pick between the device icon of his trodes, glasses, ballistic mask and eyes.....

You would just take a perception test to notice the eyes.
No need to over-complicate things for no reason.

Same with a gun the internal smartgun and gun would have the same icon as they are built into each other but I don't think the laser sight and gun would or the external smartgun link and gun would.

Pretty sure that the smartgun (no matter if it have an external smartgun system or internal smartgun system) is just one icon. If you get 3 marks on the smartgun icon then you can use Garbage In/Garbage Out to reprogram it so that when the trigger is pulled (either mechanically or via DNI) you can make the magazine eject instead.

Same as I am pretty sure that a vehicle (no matter if it have sensors, a steering wheel, gear box, engine, window elevators etc etc) also count as one single icon. Or that if you get a mark on a drone you can also control its weapon mount.

Again, keep it simple and don't over complicate things for no reason.

These icons can run silent which makes them hidden to being automatically spotted within 100 meters of you.

Same as any icon beyond 100 meters of you (silent or not) is also not being automatically spotted.

You need to spend an observe in detail action to "focus" on a device icon before you can interact with it. Once you done this you can interact with it at any time without another observe in detail action. Even if the device is moved to the other side of the world or start to run silent. Doesn't matter. Once you have the icon in "focus" it will remain there until you log out or the device is rebooted (or its owner successfully bend the rules of the matrix to hide the icon from you).

I choose invisible because that is easy for players to understand. In the game they are said to be hidden.

I would be careful about using the word Invisible. Remember that it only take a single hit on a matrix perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity. It take 1 single hit on a matrix perception test to "spot" an icon no matter where in the world it is located (they are very obvious). To "spot" a silent running icon you might need 2 hits (maybe 3), they are slightly harder to interact with due to the limited communication to the matrix, but they are hardly "Invisible".

The book says if you know a feature of an icon you can try and spot it, otherwise you must try to spot a random Icon amongst the multiple icons that may be running silent in the vicinity. This is where I don't agree with just being able to say "I am hacking his eyes." One, I don't think saying I want to hack his eyes is "knowing a feature of the icon", you know a feature of the device though. I do think that term "feature of an icon" could be interpreted in several ways. I do not think other people are wrong for interpreting it another way I just don't agree with that myself.

There is an example on p. 271 where Spike know that the Riggers RCC and and the rotordrone are running silent within 100 meters. This information alone is enough to take a matrix perception test to spot them directly without randomly looking through every single silent running icon in the vicinity. Just keep it simple and don't try to over complicate things.

To me both cybereyes and glasses could have the same form in the matrix...

Cybereyes is a cybernetic augmentation while glasses is an imaging device. Why would you assume they have identical icons and features within the matrix...?

This is what I call layering icons.

I don't think laying icons is a "thing" to be honest.

But Icons don't always look like the device so why would the physical device other than knowing where it was at, help you spot the icon?

Because: "Lucky for you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you."]

Device icons still have to follow matrix protocol (unless the owner is running the restricted wrapper cyberprogram). As long as it is following matrix protocol you always instinctively know what type of device the icon represent. And wrapper doesn't fool matrix perception, so if you are specifically looking for the icon you will still spot it even if it have a representation that goes against the matrix protocol and if you are successfully looking at a wrapped icon you may also see what it really is.

[kainite311]

...otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...

Don't worry. It doesn't work that way.

Could you point me to the page or section? I seem to be unable to locate it last few times I re-read that book Thank you

[Iron Serpent Prince]

You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...

You post that as if you feel the Rigger doesn't have to blow a whole ton of Nuyen on the same thing.  Here is a little hint for you; "Jumping In to a drone in any truly relevant way should be a rare occurrence.  If it isn't, the the GM is taking pity on the poor player who chose a Rigger."  Why?  The painful Noise rules.  (A drones Device Rating is equal to it's Pilot rating.  Most drones can't be piloted remotely in a Metroplex Downtown area.)  Sure, an RCC can help with that, but the more you have to use the Noise Reduction of the RCC, the less Autosofts you can share.  Combine that with 99.9% of all Autosofts being Model Specific, and a Rigger is screwed just as hard with trying to keep a drone relevant.

Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman. 

^^^^ This.

Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.

In fact, the whole idea of a Drone Swarm was introduced late in 3rd to give Riggers something no one else could do.  And then 5e gave that to the Decker as well.

You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.

Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?

Easy.  Combat relevance.  Remember, Hobbes is referring to a non-swarm Rigger who has to pray the GM will throw a driving bone to once in a while and will be spending the vast majority of their time acting as a poor man's Sammie.

[Hobbes]

You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.

Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?

Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security. 

A Wheelman without a drone swarm is a lot less vulnerable to matrix attacks.

to get the RCC

A Wheelman without a drone swarm have little to no use for a RCC.

Just go for a commlink with a decent Data Processing and Firewall rating.

That way you can also get a sim-module modded for hot-sim so you can use hot-sim VR and hot-sim Jump In (as-written the control Rig only come with a sim-module that is not modded for hot-sim and the RCC doesn't come with a sim-module at all).

In Order:  Agility because sometimes you use Agility with your Gunnery, sometimes you use Logic.  Intuition; Perception, Matrix Perception, Initiative, Defense tests.  Riggers are frequently used as recon specialists, and then all the other normal reasons a Shadowrunner wants a high Intuition. 

Wheelman without a Drone Swarm?  Riggers without Drones is a silly thing.  You can't drive your Car/Van/whatever into a building most of the time, you're going to want a Drone or a Swarm of Drones so you can actually play Shadowrun instead of Uber Driver.  You've got a character that is heavily invested in VCR and RCCs and such, you'll want to use them.  Building a Samurai with a bad ass vehicle isn't a Rigger, and is easier said than done as you need Logic and Gunnery in addition to the basic Samurai all meat package.  I've found the comprises unsatisfactory, but YMMV and all. 

 

[Hobbes]

Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.

Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!

[Redwulfe]

I moved my responses to Xenon to another topic as I don't feel that it is on topic for here any more. you can find them here. https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27648.0

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...

You post that as if you feel the Rigger doesn't have to blow a whole ton of Nuyen on the same thing.  Here is a little hint for you; "Jumping In to a drone in any truly relevant way should be a rare occurrence.  If it isn't, the the GM is taking pity on the poor player who chose a Rigger."  Why?  The painful Noise rules.  (A drones Device Rating is equal to it's Pilot rating.  Most drones can't be piloted remotely in a Metroplex Downtown area.)  Sure, an RCC can help with that, but the more you have to use the Noise Reduction of the RCC, the less Autosofts you can share.  Combine that with 99.9% of all Autosofts being Model Specific, and a Rigger is screwed just as hard with trying to keep a drone relevant.

A couple of things to unpack there.

First of all, you use the RCC for the noise reduction rather than sharing autosofts (Opinion rather than fact). Furthermore, Noise is funny in that you don't consider both ends of the communication; only the noise affecting the character's location matters*.  So, awkwardly, a drone isn't affected by local noise- only the noise and static the Rigger is in.  The only Noise that indirectly affects the Drone is distance based noise.

*=admittedly this isn't clear in SR5 and is a clarification made somewhere on the forums here.  I'll link it when I find it.

Second: Jumping in vs Dog Brain.  The biggest advantage to being a Rigger is the ability to throw more than one "pet" into the scenario.  But you can only be jumped in to one thing at a time.  If you want to put 3 Rotodrones overhead to lay down the Death from Above on your enemies, you can only be jumped into one of them.  The other two are literally useless without appropriate autosofts to use the onboard weapons, and you probably also want to shell out even more nuyen for autosofts that allow the drones to detect/track targets and to at least attempt to dodge incoming fire.    You probably want the autosofts running locally on the drones, just in case a hacker is able to jack your connection to your drones even if you're not using the inherent NR on your RCC. 

That adds up, and my earlier point was several (especially many autosofts cost more than a basic VCR does.  So if a Decker wants to control drones, a VCR not only gives mechanical bonuses it also potentially renders moot the need for expensive autosofts, so long as the Decker only needs to put one drone at a time into a scene.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.

Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!

Prior to 4th (which I don't know enough about to comment on), VCR gave Initiative bonuses ONLY while controlling a vehicle / device.  The exact same bonuses a Sam could get with Wired Reflexes, plus those were useful in combat.

The VCR also added a small dice pool modifier to driving tests, but given the Unicorn-esque call for driving tests it wasn't enough to make up for gimping your character by taking VCR and not Wired Reflexes.

So if a Decker wants to control drones, a VCR not only gives mechanical bonuses it also potentially renders moot the need for expensive autosofts, so long as the Decker only needs to put one drone at a time into a scene.

If you are only talking putting a single drone on a scene, then the Player is better served making another character that can do combat because the presence of a meat body will always be superior to a drone, and can be much less Nuyen intensive.
Single vehicle / drone play isn't worthwhile enough to have the Rigger even exist.  Vehicle rules are rarely used, if ever, and as mentioned in the previous paragraph meat body is more useful than drone.