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Power Gamer: MinMaximus

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Zelte

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« on: <10-21-16/1238:16> »
Ok, I am an OLD School Gamer (Basic D&D Keep on the Borderlands with colored cardboard squares for dice).
I am, however, relatively new to ShadowRun 5e.

I am "trying" to run a !LOW LEVEL! Shadow Run campaign for my son and his friends.
Unfortunately, one of the players is a 14 year old Min-Maximus Powergamer.
His character (only 2 runs) is an Aspected Mage who (by virtue of another GM)
got a hold of several MILLION nuyen and modded his body up to 1 remaining Essence.

He's a bio-buffed, walking tank.
Anything that presents a slight martial challenge would turn the other players into ash.

He also threw nearly ALL his creation points into Willpower, so that he could resist magic and the negative aspects of being a near cyberzombie.
If I DO make him have a "freak out" he'll just step through the entire party like paper and continue the Run alone (He's an FPS character).

He has Strength, Body and Agility in the 7-8 range. Medium Intelligence and 6 Willpower.
What do I do about this kid?
More importantly, how do I keep the campaign from being ruined by having "Superman" walking in a party of norms?

Only 1 other player in the 4 member party has anything magical.
He is just Aspected-Magician with mostly combat buffs (and talk to spirits) for magic. The others are 2 gun-bunnies (new players). No Magician. No Rigger. No Decker. No Technomage.
[I really tried to cajole the other players into something more esoteric than "Cyber-Gunner".]
I could make him start the character over, but he'll just build another Min-Max augged-up walking tank.

I'd rather not rig the entire game JUST to bring the power gamer down, but I can't have encounters of 3 thugs and one COMBAT-DEMI-GOD!!

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you.

RPG's don't lead to Satanism. They lead to Statistics and Chartered Accountancy. ...
Which is far worse.

RowanTheFox

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« Reply #1 on: <10-21-16/1252:07> »
I personally wouldn't let him play that character. It's simply not fair to the other players.
It is better to be crazy and know it, than to be sane and have one's doubts.

"Nothing is wrong if no one can stop you."

Remember, you're only a genius when they need you. The rest of the time you're just an asshole.

Well, drek. Looks like Timmy fell into the Dissonance Well again.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #2 on: <10-21-16/1305:49> »
That doesn't sound really optimized, but I understand that it can seem that way for a relatively new GM.

First and foremost: Talk to your player and explain why you have a problem with the current situation (I know, that could be a tad difficult to explain to a 14 year old that was allowed to create his dream character that is just better than everyone else)

Now to the crunch:

With that low essence his magic should be pretty much gone, so that part of his character is wasted.
The problem is really the financial imbalance (and likely the fact that the availability rules weren't used)
Normally when a character get that much money in one go he would retire instead of burning out.

I can't make any real recommendations without knowing more about his build, but I'm pretty confident that this is by far not an optimized build (the biggest hint is that he started as an Aspected Mage)

But some general options to deal with super combat monsters:
- No matter how tough you are, APDS from a full auto burst from an Ares Alpha will slow you down - especially if you are softened up beforehand with a pepper punch grenade. Incidentally that and a full body armor are standard issue for Knight Errant HRT
- Social Solutions: Not everything must be killed - especially if your Johnson explicitly says there should be no deaths on this job or he won't pay. Encourage stealthy solutions and allow the players to talk their way through problems. This isn't D&D, kills don't give XP
- Cyberware scanner: So, so many venues have these nasty scanners to find potential cyber attackers. Everyone has their licenses in order, right?
- Biggest Threat has to go down now: There is a sniper on the opposing team and he only has one shot before he has to change position or his quarry gets to cover. Who is he going to shoot? The biggest threat of course: APDS + Desert Strike = Help please, I seem to have lost my left arm
- Your organs look nice: Millions of hardware in your body? The news got around! Now there is a whole team waiting for him after the run to harvest his chrome - especially after he killed someone important or their nephew.
Really: If he kills to many people sooner or later karma is going to bite him in the ass. And no matter how tough you are: A trap consisting of four simultaneously exploding flash bangs will take you down (DV 25 S AP 7)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

LordGrizzle

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« Reply #3 on: <10-21-16/1822:21> »
I personally wouldn't let him play that character. It's simply not fair to the other players.

Yeah. If he doesn't see that, I would throw him out of the game. Because it's about fun for all players.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <10-21-16/1826:40> »
Have to agree with both Jack and Eira.

Just because some other GM let him play this character DOES NOT mean you have to... Simply tell him this is YOUR game and not the other GM's and he has to make up a new character.

If he is awakened, then keep in mind that his total Magic Rating is limited to (Essence + Initiation rank) ROUNDED DOWN. So if he has not initiated and has 5.00 essence worth of bioware/cyberware installed his effective magic rating is 1, which serves as the thresh hold for when Drain become Physical! This character COULD literally blow his own brains out by casting a high powered spell.... And considering the Max power of a spell he casts is limited to Magic Rating x2... Most spells he casts are going to be easily resisted.

Other then that, just don't "play his game".... Meaning, design you runs for the other 3 characters in mind and just go from there. Yes this character will out shine the others some times, but no character can be good at all aspects of the game. (remember, Combat is only 1 part of the game..... And players who think they can just blast their way past every problem is in for a surprise as Corps can literally send unlimited numbers of drones, spirits, critters and security guards ALL DAY LONG at the idiots that just try to shoot their way past problems... And that doesn't include the assets of the Police and even the Military that can be called in, in extreme situations (like when a bunch of "Armed Terrorists" are shooting everyone in sight!)


It is possible to mix high powered and high karma characters with relatively new characters IF the GM takes the time to flesh out all aspects of his game and applies some World Consistancies to it. Trust me.
For example my Old School group has been running the same characters for almost 30 years now (updated through the edition changes, of course). My Mage as 4700+ Karma, our Adept has 5200+ karma, our Rigger has 4400 Karma, the Sammy has 4900 karma, and our decker/technomancer has 250 karma....  Yet our decker/technomancer can keep pace with the others just fine in most regards.


One of the biggest problems I have seen over the years in shadowrun done by GMs is what I call "Enemy Creep".... and this is usually because they are more familiar with other game systems that use a "level" system. (like DnD). IN DnD, as the characters gain levels, they fight harder and harder monsters. At first level they usually fight Kobalds and goblins and Orcs. Then as they gain a couple of levels they start fighting Orcs, hobgoblins and Ogres..... then when they hit level 10 to 12 they are fighting Giants, dragons and deamons....  So they take this thought process and try to apply it to Shadowrun.... usually in the form of additional dice and higher health, armor and weapons.....
Meaning when the characters are starting out and fight a group of gangers, the gangers are armed with pistols, armored jackets and have a dice pool of 4 to 7. Then after the party has a few dozen karma... those same gangers have submachineguns, heavy armor and dice pools in the 7 to 12 range... Then when the party hits a couple hundred karma the gangers are now packing Assault Cannons, light security armor and have dice pools of 10 to 20!

This is (in my opinion) a Fallacy. A ganger is a ganger is a ganger. Forever and always. That is not to say there won't be variation among the gangers, but they are not improving in leaps and bounds on par with the players... they are still bound by the setting and the "reality" of their situation.... Take my above group for example, we STILL deal with gangers (in fact we just finished a mission dealing with some gangers trying to squeeze an old contact buddy of the Samurai) And yes, we MASSIVELY out class them... For example they were rolling 8 dice to shoot with 16 dice to resist (modified more by AP), while our Samurai rolls 26 dice for his LIGHT pistol!
Our problem wasn't the combat as both me and the adept can auto-success more then they can Edge Resist... Our problem was getting to the hostage and keeping him safe from the gangers, while dealing with socio-political fallout of the situation and not letting it degenerate into a blood bath that spilled out into the general public... And that takes more then just "shooting them in the face".... We were never in any real danger of taking a single point of damage. (well.. I did.. but that was self induced.... once by drain, and once because I glitched a falling roll.... but.. Meh, I was never in any real danger of dying and 4 stun/2 physical is nothing to really worry about).

No, the issue you are going to have is the resources this single character bring tot he table and the imbalance and personal jealousy the other players will have when they see this other character... (This isn't an issue at our table asn the decker/technomancer choose to retire their high karma character and KNEW they would be starting much lower then everyone else. But she is ROLEplayer.. and not a ROLLplayer... for her, the fun is in the story and the character, not the dice she gets to throw)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

RowanTheFox

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« Reply #5 on: <10-21-16/2028:18> »
Agreed, he is completely wasting the magic portion of his character by taking that much 'ware. Which is a shame, because magic-based power gamers are pants drekkingly terrifying and awesome.

I have no problem with uber-powerful characters as long as all of the characters are built that way. Power gaming can be an absolute blast, so long as it's fair to all of the players. Otherwise, someone isn't going to have fun.
It is better to be crazy and know it, than to be sane and have one's doubts.

"Nothing is wrong if no one can stop you."

Remember, you're only a genius when they need you. The rest of the time you're just an asshole.

Well, drek. Looks like Timmy fell into the Dissonance Well again.

Glyph

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« Reply #6 on: <10-22-16/0659:34> »
I agree with the others - this is your campaign; everyone should be starting with brand-new characters.  Especially since this other GM seems to be running a very different kind of campaign than yours, to put it mildly.  You may be right that he will just continue to min-max, but doing it without the several million Nuyen this other GM gave him will make a difference.

LordGrizzle

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« Reply #7 on: <10-22-16/0743:29> »
I agree with the others - this is your campaign; everyone should be starting with brand-new characters.  Especially since this other GM seems to be running a very different kind of campaign than yours, to put it mildly.  You may be right that he will just continue to min-max, but doing it without the several million Nuyen this other GM gave him will make a difference.

I mean it's an obviously immature teenager. Do you even know if the other GM REALLY gave him that money or if he just made it up?

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #8 on: <10-22-16/1111:16> »
Other folks have stated it here.   

It's your campaign, you get to approve the characters. 

It is really hard to make a game that's going to fun for this player at the same time as trying to make fun for the others on the team. Having such a huge power-imbalance makes playing unenjoyable as a team. You can ask the player to bring a new character to the table (I assume that's what other players did to), so that they can all be on a similar field. This is not as much about power-gaming and min/maxing, it is a blatant mismatch of power of a character (or other characters) to the setting they are playing in. 

From an in-game setting... it makes sense. Why is the million-dollar awakened-bot running low-level runs with a bunch of shadowrunnners and splitting the fee with them, and not being a corps agent or doing their own thing? Or at least running with a world-class team to keep that money coming in. 

If you still want the character at the table. Either play to other people's strength (basically avoid combat), or but severe challenges on this character. Is it fair, no, but either is bringing an unbalanced character to a table of new characters. Have severe hits damage his ware and have it need to be replaced. If he goes astral in places he shouldn't have high level spirits attack him. 


I don't understand how he is an aspected magician who talks to spirits and uses combat buffs? is he an aspected sorcerer or an aspected conjurer?
If he is down to 1 essence. That means his max magic (before initiating) is 1, and he probably had to buy it back with karma. Is this the case for him? If that's so, his spellcasting buffs are pretty limited, as well as his spirit summoning (ex. can only summon F2 spirits). He can't astrally project, so whenever he is assensing, he vulnerable both on the astral and the physical, but can only run away from infinitely faster astral spirits and magicians with his physical body. Are these accurate on his sheet?

Reaver

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« Reply #9 on: <10-22-16/1349:06> »
@FST

Just a note, he can't buy his magic back up until he initiates. Essence+Initation rank is the hard cap for magic....

If he has 1 FULL essence left and 0 initiation ranks, his magic is forever 1.
Once he has initiated, he can then spend karma to raise his magic up to the new cap.

IF his essence is less than 1, then he has burned out, and can never use magic again... (assuming he has not initated).

Its all very confusing with the rules hidden in various parts of the book.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Glyph

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« Reply #10 on: <10-22-16/1420:31> »
The key thing to remember is that initiation grade can't be higher than Magic.  In other words, if your Magic is 1, you can only initiate to grade 1.  Then you have to raise your Magic to 2, before you can initiate to grade 2.  And so on.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #11 on: <10-23-16/1013:10> »
I know.

With 1.00-1.99 essence, the character has  max magic of 1. I just didnt want to assume the character also had magic of 1 (started with Magic<6). So the character may have needed to buy back Magic with karma. To get past Magic 1 though, the character would need to initiate.


celondon

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« Reply #12 on: <10-23-16/1542:53> »
(by virtue of another GM)

Never allow a character from another GM's game. This simple policy will save you more headaches than just about anything else.
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day!