[Bradd]

The rules for Superior prime runners allow for creation of more experienced characters: "Superior prime runners are not bound by any special constraints on skills or gear that apply to starting characters." This doesn't mention attributes. I presume it's OK to buy more than one attribute to the natural maximum, although it's not clear whether you should pay 25 BP for the last point. I'm guessing not; opinions?

I'm also not sure what to do about stuff that you can normally only buy with karma, like initiation grades.

Of course, I could always just whip up stats without using points, but I like having a framework. And I could use the prime runner advancement rules, although I'd really rather avoid the hassle of building a legal character with BP and karma.

[Tagz]

Personally I've always made that level of prime runners without BP or karma.  I've just assigned stats, skills, and gear as I thought appropriate to properly challenge my players.

Ultimately it will not be the build that makes a prime effective or weak, it will be how it's used.  A prime runner at that level should be seasoned and have superior tactics.  Their mind should be the most effective weapon.  Try to think up tactics, interesting combination of skills that compliment eachother, and tricks the prime may have picked up.

[Lansdren]

Last prime runner I did I put together much like the players had done over time.

I assigned the same BP and built the base around the concept (in this case a relativly low level blood mage)
Then I gave him Karma equal to half what the group had earned in total (this made him hard but working together possible to overcome

Using the karma (and allowing for a 1kp to 2500 credit conversion for cash as needed) I then grew the prime runner the same as I would a character.

Granted this might be more work then you might want to do but I really wanted to flesh this one out so they could become something rounded rather then just a stone target surrounded by paper ones.


You can do as is shown in the book just give a bonus to BP and build like normal but I do think this doesnt always give a rounded outcome

[Ultra Violet]

Yes Attributes are first at "Superhuman" level not bound by the constraints that apply to
starting player characters.
But a Superior NPC is a tough guy and is better than every single PC.
So how I create one? Usually like any other NPC or PC, first comes the story, in it is a rough picture what the character can do or should be able to do...
After that I give him/her/it values, like I would create a PC, with extras... and when his/her/its ratings are fitting in my picture of the NPC I see in which Prime Runner Level he/she/it fits..

Btw: Attributes could easily raised with Cyberware & Co. (which counts as gear).
And every Prime Runner has Karma, too. (see table, SR4A p. 285) A Superior has for example 125 percent of average Karma the PC have.

[Bradd]

By the book, prime runners only use Karma after their first appearance: "If the gamemaster decides that she wants to retain a prime runner to appear in a later adventure, she should keep track of the average individual Karma award for each adventure that took place since the prime runner appeared ...." I think the idea is to keep the initial creation simple by using only BP. Unfortunately, it's not so simple when you want things that you can't buy with BP. Of course, it's not critical that a prime runner work out to an exact number of points, so you can always just figure things like initiation wash out in the noise.

[Glyph]

You shouldn't need BP or Karma to create a superior NPC - simply assign that NPC whatever skills, Attributes, and gear make sense.

There are numerous ways to have a "superior" NPC.  Obviously, you can take a PC as a starting point and make a character who is better in some way, or multiple ways.  Or the NPC can be superior like the Tir Ghost NPCs in the book are - by having a superior breadth of skill and a lack of any glaring weaknesses.  And superior NPCs are not limited to rival runners - they can be superior because they have massive resources to bring to bear, or have lots of important contacts.

Only the first type could really hope to go toe to toe with the whole group (and even then, not likely - a group can usually take out an individual fairly easily), but that's actually fine.  Shadowrun is a more tactical game, and NPCs should succeed with clever plans, not by being no-selling, end-of-level-boss types.

[FastJack]

You shouldn't need BP or Karma to create a superior NPC - simply assign that NPC whatever skills, Attributes, and gear make sense.

There are numerous ways to have a "superior" NPC.  Obviously, you can take a PC as a starting point and make a character who is better in some way, or multiple ways.  Or the NPC can be superior like the Tir Ghost NPCs in the book are - by having a superior breadth of skill and a lack of any glaring weaknesses.  And superior NPCs are not limited to rival runners - they can be superior because they have massive resources to bring to bear, or have lots of important contacts.

Only the first type could really hope to go toe to toe with the whole group (and even then, not likely - a group can usually take out an individual fairly easily), but that's actually fine.  Shadowrun is a more tactical game, and NPCs should succeed with clever plans, not by being no-selling, end-of-level-boss types.

Too true

Don't set a number before you create the NPC. Instead, just give them what you think they need, then figure out how many BP's they've used to quantify them. Then you can see if they are more or less powerful than you wanted and adjust accordingly.

[Lansdren]

You shouldn't need BP or Karma to create a superior NPC - simply assign that NPC whatever skills, Attributes, and gear make sense.

There are numerous ways to have a "superior" NPC.  Obviously, you can take a PC as a starting point and make a character who is better in some way, or multiple ways.  Or the NPC can be superior like the Tir Ghost NPCs in the book are - by having a superior breadth of skill and a lack of any glaring weaknesses.  And superior NPCs are not limited to rival runners - they can be superior because they have massive resources to bring to bear, or have lots of important contacts.

Only the first type could really hope to go toe to toe with the whole group (and even then, not likely - a group can usually take out an individual fairly easily), but that's actually fine.  Shadowrun is a more tactical game, and NPCs should succeed with clever plans, not by being no-selling, end-of-level-boss types.

Too true

Don't set a number before you create the NPC. Instead, just give them what you think they need, then figure out how many BP's they've used to quantify them. Then you can see if they are more or less powerful than you wanted and adjust accordingly.

Now you see for a prime runner particually one that will be a more then one run kind of enermy Id be more inclinded to make them fully. go the whole hog as if it was a PC give some life to it rather then just a few numbers.

Maybe its just me but I like giving them abit more if I was planning on using them more then once.

Takes more time but everyone knows the best bad guys are the ones who have a sense of realness to them

[Morg]

Base meta human type human SUGE of your choice  but add Improved atribute Edge and luck as metatrates then buy Edge to max value give him some skill at disguise. I based him on Hannibal from the A Team he made a decent Prime.
Why dose he do it?...he did it for the jazz!

When the PCs tried to kill him for good he had enough hand of gods that I could still make him reacureing
The cat came back the vary next day!

It was a great way to give my players belly aches whenever they had to sit on an extraction and waited for the meet!

Cliche archetypes are a wonderful starting point for Ideas. Why use cliches? Literature uses them not only because they are Iconic but they work well in a story

[Bradd]

Don't set a number before you create the NPC. Instead, just give them what you think they need, then figure out how many BP's they've used to quantify them. Then you can see if they are more or less powerful than you wanted and adjust accordingly.

Sure thing. The question then is, how many BPs are things like initiation grades worth?

[Lansdren]

grade 1 = 13 karma or about 7bp
grade 2 = 16 karma or 8bp
grade 3 = 19 karma or 10bp


this is based on the base linecost and does not allow for discounts due to ordeals and such. theres no real hard and fast rule so maybe just fudge it abit

[Bradd]

Hm, I'd say that at least one discount is typical, so I'd start the series at 10 rather than 13. And for the other things with cost progressions, BP cost is the same as karma cost for the first couple points (Attr 1 -> 2 = 10 BP/Karma, Skill 0 -> 1 -> 2 = 4 BP/Karma), but doesn't increase from there. So going by the same pattern, initiation grades should be worth about 10 BP each.

However, I don't think an initiation grade is worth as much as a point of magic, so maybe they should only be worth 5 BP, or maybe we should even ignore the cost as trivial when it comes to writing up a prime runner.