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Stealth questions/frustrations

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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #45 on: <12-22-15/0957:18> »
Also listen in on every meat space conversation. 
Considering how "sight" is distorted on the astral, as you "see" auras for living things and absences-of-auras for objects, but are not using your biological eyes as sense organs, it's really not reasonable to think you can overhear conversations using physical sound as a medium on the astral. You can probably pick up the emotional tone of a conversation, but not the actual concepts spoken of.
Playability > verisimilitude.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #46 on: <12-22-15/2124:59> »
Ok, this is second hand knowledge,  I read recently on one of these forums that recent editions specifically made speech muddied but the emotional content was clear.

Hobbes

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« Reply #47 on: <12-23-15/1240:15> »
Also listen in on every meat space conversation. 
Considering how "sight" is distorted on the astral, as you "see" auras for living things and absences-of-auras for objects, but are not using your biological eyes as sense organs, it's really not reasonable to think you can overhear conversations using physical sound as a medium on the astral. You can probably pick up the emotional tone of a conversation, but not the actual concepts spoken of.

Never seen anything that explicitly says an Astral being is deaf to the physical world.  Every table I've every played/run we've allowed talking back and forth.  I swear in an earlier edition it was explicitly stated that an astrally projecting mage could speak and be heard on the physical plane. 

I'm willing to be wrong as I can't recall where I would have read either way.  Any guess as to if it's actually spelled out anywhere?

Sendaz

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« Reply #48 on: <12-23-15/1254:53> »
Not deaf, but pretty close.

Back in the days of 3rd edition you could literally hear normally while on the astral.
Quote from: 3rd ed pg 173
Your astral form has normal human senses of sight and
hearing. You can also use assensing to read information from
auras. The astral form cannot taste or smell, although sensory
input that has no equivalent may be translated as such, and it
can only touch other astral objects and beings.
<snip>
Likewise, you
could scan a sheet of paper from astral space and get feelings
of love and longing from it, but you can’t read it to see that it’s
a love letter. Speech and other sounds are as easy to hear from
the astral plane as they are in the physical world
.

This was changed in 4th to bring hearing more in line with the other senses as this was a loophole players were swift to pick up on.
It was a bit odd that a projecting mage could sit in on a boardroom meeting from the astral spying and still  hear any conversation clear as a bellwhistle while only being able to make out the auras of the living members and unable to read the emotional content of any documents on the table.  Remember you are there as a psychic presence, so no real eardrums or eyes there. Thus the change.

Following on this change, in 4th you could still 'hear' sounds to a limited degree, but they are fainter and warped, it is more the emotional content that carries across now just as the other senses operate.
Quote from: 4th ed Street Magic pg 114
It is also possible to eavesdrop
on the noises, communications, and even smells of the physical
world from the astral plane, but just like reading a physical
book, the assensing character will perceive the emotional tone
and impressions rather than the physical sensation.

This was touched on again in 5th
Quote from: Street Grimoire pg 28
When astral projecting, you do not hear
the din of the physical world,
nor can you read written
words. Technological displays and holographic images
don’t exist even as shadows on the astral plane. All
the lifeless objects in the physical world appear as dull
and intangible shadows to astral forms, allowing them
to easily pass through. Details on these objects (color,
texture, smell) are almost impossible to understand; a
book’s words are impossible to read, as is the context
of the writing unless it’s tied to some emotion that the
character can perceive. All life has intangible auras that
illuminate the astral world, while emotions can color
them. Emotions can also color non-living objects if they
have some significance to metahumanity (individually
or as a whole). Within the silence, the magician can
hear the crackle and hiss of mana being drawn into a
spell or the subtle harmonies or cacophony of aspected
mana as it flows through the astral plane
.

Now if the astral projecting mage manifested to make himself seen and heard, I would not have a problem with him seeing and hearing a bit more in line with normal senses.
He is still astral, but one could handwave it as being more aligned with the material place, but your GM may still call it astral senses only, saying your are psychically speaking and hearing so always check ahead as YMMV..

Believe there was a thread somewhere where someone was asking if he manifested could he then stick just his ear through the wall behind a plant (to hide the sight of a ghostly ear sticking out of the wall) to listen in. 
« Last Edit: <12-23-15/1317:52> by Sendaz »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #49 on: <12-23-15/1354:20> »
Wow, thanks! 

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #50 on: <12-23-15/1432:52> »
Thanks for the citations, Sendaz!
Playability > verisimilitude.

Tron

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« Reply #51 on: <01-19-16/1436:44> »
What is your charisma? A good way to get around with magic on you vs spirits is to walk and look like you belong. With ediquitte! The social stealth. A lot of spirits don't understand humans very well so when they see an another meta human walking around with magic on they go to the word of their orders. So with masking and etiquette you can get by with a invisibly in mundane vision while looking and acting like a normal Joe in astral. (Which a non manifested spirit can only see in)

Reaver

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« Reply #52 on: <01-19-16/1540:25> »
Astral space isn't empty (as I know others have said).

Everything that is on the physical world has a reflection on the astral. In fact, there may even be things on the astral that are NOT there in the physical! A beloved theater that gets torn down may still have its astral shadow... until it fades from memory.

So basically, if you can't see the spirit on the astral, it can't see you!

Spend the time on astral recon, learn the patrol route and plan your entry based on where and when the spirit isn't. And yes, while travel in the astral can in theory be at the speed of thought, the faster you move, the less time you have to notice something and react, so a patrol isn't moving at Warp 9 speeds  ::)

Also, spirits are sapient. Meaning they still have individual thought and are susepible to all the standard ways of bypassing security. Create an astral distraction to focus its attention, Engage it in fast talk to bluff your way past, or any other trick that you use on a physical guard.

There are always flaws in every system, its your job to find and exploit them!
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.