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Stealth questions/frustrations

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Kincaid

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« Reply #15 on: <12-21-15/1230:47> »
It is a houserule, just to be clear.  The problem with Invisibility/Improved Invisibility and mana/physical distinctions is that you use your brain to see in any event, eyes just relay the information, so the in-game distinctions don't really translate.  Is there a separate part of the brain used for astral perception?  Could I develop a single-sense spell that affects that part of your brain? All of this probably gets too weird and granular for most tables.  The distinctions the game makes aren't accurate, but are pretty intuitive and easy to grasp for players, which is more important.

Also, I hate the "Force 2 Watcher, you lose" aspect of things and wanted to give my players a way around it.

Now, with all that said, a lot of the normal ways of getting around guards (misdirection, etc.) will work on someone astrally perceiving just as easily.  And mage guards are expensive!  Not very site is going to have one hanging around.
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SmilinIrish

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« Reply #16 on: <12-21-15/1233:51> »
Do you allow players to use the sneaking skill on the astral (as in Sneaking+Logic (astral agility) vs Assensing + Intuition)?
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #17 on: <12-21-15/1235:11> »
Could Manascape or it's single target variant be of any help here?

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #18 on: <12-21-15/1240:54> »
Yeah a sam can easily be Skills D-E and not miss much, but mages just generally need more stuff.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Kincaid

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« Reply #19 on: <12-21-15/1241:08> »
Could Manascape or it's single target variant be of any help here?

I had a mage use this to change the astral images of the group (that was otherwise physically concealed) to that of insects.  I love manascape.  Also a handy way of confusing enemy spirits if you've had a chance to assess to evil mage's aura beforehand.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #20 on: <12-21-15/1242:42> »
I had a mage use this to change the astral images of the group (that was otherwise physically concealed) to that of insects.

That sounds like it could make the group even more KoS than they would otherwise be...
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Kincaid

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« Reply #21 on: <12-21-15/1244:08> »
I had a mage use this to change the astral images of the group (that was otherwise physically concealed) to that of insects.

That sounds like it could make the group even more KoS than they would otherwise be...

Hah!  Good point.  They were tiny insects (the spell makes it clear that you can just reshape, so I include size in there), but I'll keep that in mind if it comes up again.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #22 on: <12-21-15/1435:35> »
Initiate and learn the masking technique + a decent metamagic focus.

Maybe I've misread masking. I know it can help conceal foci, but are you saying this can also conceal that you have a spell active? Or are you saying that, given casting invisibility isn't going to be an option, this is an important step combined with many others to get concealed?


I should have been more specific: You need to learn Masking and Extended Masking (SG p. 149) to hide active spells.

Oh, and now with Rigger 5 out there is another way to sneak - albeit a pretty ridiculous one: Get a drone wheelchair - to be precise, get a Transys Steed. Upgrade the pilot rating to 4 and get an appropriate autosoft for sneaking (maybe even a junk build RCC to have the autosoft at 6)
Instantly 10 sneaking dice for the guy in the wheelchair.

Total cost:
Drone: 4000
Pilot: 3200
Autosoft 6: 3000
RCC: 1400
 


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Hobbes

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« Reply #23 on: <12-21-15/1442:14> »
Also, I hate the "Force 2 Watcher, you lose" aspect of things and wanted to give my players a way around it.


Really depends on the Watcher's (or Spirits) orders.  "Report Every Astral thing you see" will result in a lot of false positives.  Devil Rats are everywhere, there have to be things like Awakened Squirrels and Bats and Moles and whatnot.  Plus you'd get genuine false positives as well.  An alarm that generates multiple false positives every night is a worthless alarm.

"Attack every Astral thing you see" and essentially just wait for the Spirit or Watcher to go *POP* before you investigate is a little more common.  Downsides, every time a mage comes to visit their foci and sustained spells will get punched until deactivated.

"Report every Mage or Sustained Spell you see." You're counting on the Spirit to get enough Assensing hits to tell the difference between a Spell and a Devil Rat.

Recall that Spirits/Watchers are deliberately stooopid when it comes to these kinds of orders so they deliberately play dumb and actually make poor guards without very specific orders.  Plus they're fairly useless indoors because a Spirit will need to perform an Astral Perception action in each room and could be evaded by characters.

And a Force 1 or 2 Spirit has a decent chance of failing an Astral Perception check.  AFB, but check the thresholds of what it takes to spot an active spell.  If it's a small enough Spirit you may just be able to chance it.

All else fails a PC can use a Spirit to deduce what the astral patrols likely orders are and figure out an exploit.  Or toss a sustained spell on a handy stray cat or pigeon. 

Remember the patrolling spirit is between hostile and indifferent to it's orders.  If the GM has a Patrol Spirit behaving like low rent mage that reacts intelligently and flexibly to the PCs, he's handicapping the PC mages considerably. 

And Spirits are expensive over the long term.  Reagents twice a day to bind them, pay a mage twice a day to summon/bind/order them, and then 24/7 Astral back up.  Very expensive.  Hellhounds or other awakened critters and wards should be far more common.


adzling

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« Reply #24 on: <12-21-15/1446:56> »
Contrary to what others have said I think you're GM is doing it right, assuming you are constantly going up against high value targets (as previously pointed out lower value ones will not have astral scouts and magical backup).

Regardless for an astral scout to see you he must be in the same room/ have unobstructed line of sight.

So if you are moving around inside a building for example that astral scout cannot see through walls, but only within the walls of the room his astral form currently occupies.

Mundane walls, windows, cars etc will obstruct his vision just like anything else.

If I were you I would go with stealth/sneaking skill of one or two, ensure your agility is at least 2, invest in a chameleon suit or similar and you should end up with about 7 dice.

Assuming you start with zero sneak and 1 agility this will only cost you 16 karma.
A *very* worthwhile investment.

If you can't do the above I would go with Citizen Joe, you're a round peg trying to fit into a square hole.
Time to reroll your character, change your team's approach or discuss taking different missions.

As a point of reference in our game:
1). most magical guards encountered are dual-natured critters. Spirits are reserved for high value targets. Many places have nothing at all.
2). we have a couple support characters who have very poor stealth, they tend to hang back until their presence is warranted. They still have other things they can do while the two or three stealthy folks are sneaking around. Everyone DOES NOT have to be in the same dang room all the time, this ain't D&D!
« Last Edit: <12-21-15/1452:19> by adzling »

Hobbes

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« Reply #25 on: <12-21-15/1517:15> »

2). we have a couple support characters who have very poor stealth, they tend to hang back until their presence is warranted. They still have other things they can do while the two or three stealthy folks are sneaking around. Everyone DOES NOT have to be in the same dang room all the time, this ain't D&D!

Mage in the van with a Spirit on the leash is very handy.  Also handy, biofiber pockets and command activated alchemist Preparations.  Zip in from the Van Astrally and activate the spells in your team's pockets.  Astral mage can still deal with Astral threats and provide counterspelling. 

Mages can remote contribute pretty easily.   

MijRai

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« Reply #26 on: <12-21-15/1537:10> »
Uh...  Hobbes, spirits aren't stupid, or automatically pissed off they've been summoned.  I mean, there's an entire index as to where you fall on the spirit social ladder, there's qualities that make some actively like you, etc.  There's also spirits wrapped around human concepts like tasks, guardians, etc...  So saying they're stupid, or only enforce the letter of the order, isn't all that accurate.  There may be situations or circumstances that cause it, but not all the time. 

You also don't need reagents twice a day to bind them.  Once bound, they're bound until their services are up.  If you give them the right kind of order, you can have some long-term service from them that they won't mind.  If you have a mage on hand just summoning spirits every 12 hours to maintain a watch, there's no inherent cost besides the mage (who may already be on your payroll, you just add a duty to his roster). 

Really, spirits can be summoned for relatively cheap costs as compared to acquiring, training and maintaining paracritters.  I mean, as of Running Wild your average security grade paracritter (Hellhounds, Barghests, Fenrir Wolves) all go for above 10,000 nuyen untrained.  Specialty critters like basilisks, chimeras, etc. are no less than 37,000 nuyen apiece.  Licensing adds 20% to the base cost (if you want to legally have them and all).  Increase the cost by 50% if you want them un-sterilized.  Then 200 to 500 nuyen a month for food and their specialized needs.  That doesn't cover training, or the chances of the paracritter doing something wrong (fire-proofing your Hellhound's kennel and wherever they're patrolling is a wise idea, no?).  Awakened Critters should be rarer than spirits; all you need for that is a sack of reagents and a mage to do the work before going to their next task.  That said, paracritters are much more dangerous if used properly (unless we're talking overly high-Force spirits, of course). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Hobbes

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« Reply #27 on: <12-21-15/1613:53> »
Pretty sure there is a specific reference in the main book as to spirits negative attitudes to typical patrol or remote activities.  I'll track it down when I can.

The reagents are cheap, the mage isn't.  A full time security mage likely runs low six figures, and you need multiple mages for 24/7 coverage.  A spirit all by itself isn't particularly useful if the mage that summoned it doesn't give a crap if it gets blown away.  A corp has to pay for the mage's time one way or another.  Mind you one mage can maintain multiple Spirits, however this is an asset and a liability.   

Depending on the useful life of a paracritter, you're looking at 5k to 10k a year.  You can literally have 10 to 20 hellhounds for what you're likely paying a security mage.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #28 on: <12-21-15/1644:20> »
They still have other things they can do while the two or three stealthy folks are sneaking around. Everyone DOES NOT have to be in the same dang room all the time, this ain't D&D!
Splitting the party can be a huge pain in the ass, but you're right, if say the decker is riding a signal and going through someone else's PAN to wired-hack a door, that could be very doable!
Playability > verisimilitude.

MijRai

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« Reply #29 on: <12-21-15/1726:22> »
You don't need dedicated security mages, though (and they should be extremely rare, as-is).  Every full Magician can summon spirits, on top of Aspected Conjurers and the occasional Mystic Adept.  You have all of your mages summon their allotment of spirits sans whatever they need for their daily duties.  You have them all give the orders to guard wherever is needed.  For the price of the wage-mages you're already paying, you have 1-8 spirits per mage. 

On top of that, you don't need the mage to be on hand as a part of the security.  They tell their spirit to warn someone on site when something bad happens, and they aren't even needed any further.  Or, if they feel their spirit get disrupted, the wage-mage calls into the office and goes 'hey guys, something is happening, send in the goons.' 

Those paracritters are going to take more than 5-10 grand a year.  Besides the constant food costs (a single Hellhound takes 6,000 nuyen in food a year alone), there's also a Lifestyle requirement to support them (High Lifestyle for said Hellhound) and the upgrade of your building to not catch fire when they start getting rowdy (I don't know how much neo-asbestos linings cost, but that's only a part of it).  There's also training fees, medical expenses and other issues to keep in mind.  Oh, don't forget to pay (and insure, egads) the Hellhound handlers. 
A Hellhound or two is cheaper than a dedicated wage-mage, sure.  They're not nearly as effective at astral security, especially when you can have a bunch of spirits provide the same service while you already pay their summoner.  They're an option, but not really the cost-effective one in this situation.  And that is the biggest concern of the Megacorporation. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

 

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