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Is Shadowrun really this brutal?

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Dinendae

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« Reply #150 on: <01-24-16/0051:35> »
Nah, mundanes don't need anything special to bring against spirits. That's why you travel with magical support when you have a reasonable chance of facing magical enemies. Your fixer should be taking care of it. If he's not, get a new fixer who gives you jobs suited to your team.

The problem being, you need to survive that poorly thought out run from the fixer.  :-\

ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #151 on: <01-24-16/0136:37> »
Yeah... If it were the case that the group should have their Mage able to handle all mystic threats, then the Mage wouldn't need a gun because the Sam would handle all physical threats right? Oh wait, no? Yeah, that's how everyone dies, counting on one person with no back up plan.

It is a major issue of shadowrun that the game runs in three spheres, of which most people can only act in one. It's a problem that is even worse in this edition because they tried so hard to make it difficult to fill multiple rules. You can't play the major from ghost in the shell because both halves of that concept need all the ¥ you can afford as well as different stats and skills. So when the decker eats it, no one can step into his shoes.

Same problem applies to magic. It's probably worse because everyone can at least view the matrix. Mundanes a have nearly zero ways to even check for magical security. You could walk around (if you can be in that area pre run) waiting to feel a vibe or with a pocket full of moss. Granted all that will tell you is if a spirit might be there, which is similar to asking if a run site has security, but getting to know nothing about it.

Not to mention the fact that legwork happens after you accept a job, so your rep gets shafted or you have to buy outside help you didn't intend to, thus making the run a screw job for pay. The entire idea of accepting a job with no legwork done is kinda insane to me. How else would I know how much to charge? Trusting a Johnson to give you the right info (or even know what info you need, he isn't an expert on B&E after all) is equally insane. Maybe it looks like a milk run to some trid watching jackass in a suit, but a real expert knows the entire place is wired with pressure sensors meaning that the job is much more complicated (read: expensive). Likewise, how would a mundane Johnson know about magical security for a run? Is he going to hire a Mage to do a breakdown of it before he hires the group? Not likely.

On a more meta level, how do you know what the biggest dice pool or the most the group will be outnumbered before the run even happens? You can't. So the entire advice for how to calculate average pay is crap. Should a black trench coat group make less because they don't have to shoot it out with an her team? Should the group be able to negotiate on the back end of a run because of increased risk or expenses? "Sorry, you only paid for a shootout with Corp security. Since HTR was tipped off you have to pay our hazard pay rates with a surcharge for change in mission parameters. It's all in the contract you made with us. If you don't pay within two weeks we auction off the pay data to cover expenses. You understand. Tata for now." Click.

Now I'm imagining shadowrunners sending invoices and bills to the Johnson who pays on net 30.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #152 on: <01-24-16/0243:34> »
...the scenario I mentioned is one of the Missions where characters are in a 6 BGC and have the chance to face a reawakened force 9 Bug Spirit. For that you need some serious firepower. as most foci are useless and spells are significantly weakened. You want to take that Bug Spirit down as fast as possible, not nickel and dime it for a couple combat turns, or it becomes a TPK.
« Last Edit: <01-26-16/0003:19> by kyoto kid »
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ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #153 on: <01-24-16/0349:00> »
Ways to deal with a force 9 spirit... *Open mouth, insert gun, pull trigger, flip GM the bird* Your move smart guy.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #154 on: <01-24-16/0353:44> »
Ways to deal with a force 9 spirit... *Open mouth, insert gun, pull trigger, flip GM the bird* Your move smart guy.

Yeeeeaaaahhhhhhh, definitely had that thought before.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #155 on: <01-24-16/0946:55> »
...the scenario I mentioned is one of hte Missions where characters are in a 6 BGC and have the chance to face a reawakened force 9 Bug Spirit. For that you need some serious firepower. as most foci are useless and spells are significantly weakened. You want to take that Bug Spirit down as fast as possible, not nickel and dime it for a couple combat turns, or it becomes a TPK.
What's the design intent in that run? To basically force the PCs to run or die, knowing that most gamers refuse to retreat?

I don't get it.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Mirikon

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« Reply #156 on: <01-24-16/1040:07> »
Just because it has stats, doesn't always mean you can kill it. If gamers refuse to retreat in the face of certain doom, then that's not the DM's fault. Lofwyr has stats, but any group that decides to step up to the plate against him is going to be toasty dragon treats, period. Facing a high level bug spirit in a high background count (probably aspected to the bug's domain) is suicide, unless you have capsule rounds of KE IV, heavy weapons, or can arrange for chunky salsa. Better choice? Try to draw the spirit out of the area with the background count, so you can blast it  normally.

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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #157 on: <01-24-16/1138:16> »
I guess the question is, are they able to reasonably infer certain doom if they fight?
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #158 on: <01-24-16/1145:20> »
Unbeatable opponents are fine in video games where the defeat can just be programmed to not end things, but outside of that they shouldn't really be used. This is because if there is only one option that doesn't end in party death, that is the very essence of railroading.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #159 on: <01-24-16/1156:41> »
I guess the question is, are they able to reasonably infer certain doom if they fight?
If they're facing a F9 bug spirit in a F6 bug-aspected background count and CAN'T reasonably infer certain doom, then as I learned from my MUD days, "Death will thank you for your gift."

Unbeatable opponents are fine in video games where the defeat can just be programmed to not end things, but outside of that they shouldn't really be used. This is because if there is only one option that doesn't end in party death, that is the very essence of railroading.
Why? Even when combat is not an option, that doesn't mean there is only one option. You have surrender, negotiation, retreat, throwing a scapegoat to give you time to get away,... Lots of options. If a group can only think in terms of 'hit it with a stick' or 'run away', then that is not railroading. That is lack of critical thinking. And I would further say that obstacles that cannot be overcome through combat have long been a part of gaming, even before there were video games. The GM going around making sure that every possible fight can be overcome by the players with brute force alone is like going to the bowling alley and putting bumpers in the gutters so that the little kids can actually hit the pins instead of getting gutterballs.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #160 on: <01-24-16/1202:31> »
No, it really isn't. It is simply the GM knowing what his players enjoy the most and going that route instead of bludgeoning them for "not playing right".
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #161 on: <01-24-16/1212:39> »
If they're facing a F9 bug spirit in a F6 bug-aspected background count and CAN'T reasonably infer certain doom, then as I learned from my MUD days, "Death will thank you for your gift."
And they know it's F9 how exactly?
Playability > verisimilitude.

Sendaz

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« Reply #162 on: <01-24-16/1452:48> »
As per Assensing table in Core, Pg 313

3 hits on the Assensing Roll will tell them if the Spirit has higher Force than their Magic, which gives a ballpark idea that things may get ugly if your Magic is a 6 or 7 and the spirit is still higher than you.

4 hits on the Assensing roll gives the exact Force of the Target, so you would know it's a solid 9.

So they should be able to get at least a rough idea of the situation if they take a moment at assess (assense) the situation.
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Glyph

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« Reply #163 on: <01-24-16/1657:25> »
What I don't get is why the spirit wouldn't be affected by the background count.  Also, on the assensing thing, don't forget that background count imposes a penalty on that.  Running away might not be a feasible option, either.  First, retreating usually gives your enemy at least one free shot at you, and secondly, a lot of times the enemy can run just as fast as you can.  It might be worth it just to lure it out of the background count, but that is only if it covers a limited area (building with bad vibes vs. neighborhood with bad vibes).

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #164 on: <01-24-16/2101:52> »
Why would a bug spirit in a bug-aspected BC suffer a penalty?
Playability > verisimilitude.

 

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