NEWS

Ceramic/plasteel components - 5E

  • 15 Replies
  • 8918 Views

Adamo1618

  • *
  • Guest
« on: <10-21-15/0930:44> »
Recently read Hard Targets and found this modification. I was interested until I found the crafting threshold at Rating * 10, with rating going from 1 through 6. Do you find this reasonable? I mean, in 4th the max rating made the weapon undetectable by MAD and it "only" had a threshold of 40, whereas this only applies -6 to the scanner test. To make matters worse the scanner only needs a single hit to ruin your day. I know I'm a bit biased since I am the party Armorer. What's your thoughts?

ProfGast

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 505
« Reply #1 on: <10-21-15/1124:32> »
I'd say it's probably something that's been overlooked a tad since Scanner ratings go all the way up to R8 these days.  On the other hand, I think only a SOTA facility would be packing better than an R6 scanner but the requirements are a little bit steep.

Halinn

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 193
« Reply #2 on: <10-21-15/1252:54> »
Threshold 60 seems a bit excessive when degrading pool is the standard. You need a pool around 20 dice to have good odds of succeeding. That's pretty ridiculous.

Adamo1618

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #3 on: <10-21-15/1440:38> »
Threshold 60 seems a bit excessive when degrading pool is the standard. You need a pool around 20 dice to have good odds of succeeding. That's pretty ridiculous.

Jugning by the Threshold table for extended tests in 5E, Extreme is placed among 30+ hits. Would Rating * 6 be more appropriate?

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #4 on: <10-21-15/1514:10> »
I don't really find that too hard to believe actually. But that may be my familiarity with fire-arms. (I own over 70 weapons. From revolvers all the way to assault rifles).

You have to remember, all a gun is, is a bomb with a directed discharge.... which is why high quality steel is used in the construction of the barrel, breech, and lock.... changing out the tensile strength of the steel for ceramics/plasteel means making sure the materials can withstand multiple factors... some things to worry about:

Heat
Expansion
Pressure
Durability
Weight.

As I said a gun is essentially a directed explosive bomb... you have an amount of explosive peopellant that is ignited and either pushes the bullet down the barrel, or causes a rapid expansion of the breech. (IE: BLOWS UP IN YOU HAND!! - yes i have had this happen!)
There is a careful balance here that gunsmiths have to worry about....

Because this is a directed explosion, you have heat, extreme amounts of it... which steel has some advantages with... one: steel heats up and disapates heat rather quickly, which - along with its tensile strength, means that the weapon is not (if made right, and used right) is not going to warp, deform or melt.

Steel is also durable. Properly forged steel won't crack, chip, splinter, or bend easily, which means steel can be subjected to all sorts of ohysical environments and handling without much worry of failure. A steel barrel can also withstand the forces and friction generated by the bullet, and affect it! (Barrell rifleling puts a spin to the bullet, decreasing wind friction, increasing accuracy and range).

Ceramics have a few qualities that are helpful - at first glance.
Its an insolator, so it handles heat extremely well. It does not have expansion characteristics (not going to deform). But ceramics are prone to cracking, splitting, and chipping. Ceramic tensile strength is also rather low...


So finding, forming, and molding ceramics into the parts needed, with the tensile strenght needed to handle repeated explosive force, and mechanical stress and shock would be one heck of a job. Especially without increasing the size, bulk and weight of the weapon.

To date, there is NO entirely ceramic firearms that have ever been made. The closest we have gotten is David Byron and Magnum Technologies. In 2000 they accepted $800,000usd to make a "airport proof" (entirely non-metal) sidearm for the US government. Magnium Technologies closed its doors in 2007 without even presenting a prototype.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Adamo1618

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #5 on: <10-21-15/1922:11> »
I don't really find that too hard to believe actually. But that may be my familiarity with fire-arms. (I own over 70 weapons. From revolvers all the way to assault rifles).

I cannot help imagining your house entirely littered with guns, on the walls, in shelves, under your pillow :D

I agree that the steel used in modern firearms will withstand the forces inside a gun better than an arbitrary ceramic. However, many high-end ceramics are more durable than steel and can handle temperatures way above 1000 degrees Celsius, at which many types of steel are red-hot. They are in fact going to wear down slower than steel. However, I'm an electrical engineer and not a mechanical one, so this is not really my area of expertise :P

Concerning the scarcity of modern ceramic firearms, you might want to take a look at the Undetecteble Firearms Act in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undetectable_Firearms_Act). It might be more legal in other countries but the US is the biggest arms exporter (funny to see my country at 9th place ^^) and as far as I know the biggest producer.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #6 on: <10-21-15/2108:46> »
that act came into being due to a patent filed by David Byron in 1986/87 for a fully ceramic pistol. (that was never made - even as a proof of concept). And by fear mongering over the Glock 17. What is interesting to note is that even to Glock 17 was not fully ceramic, the breech, barrel and lock where still made of metal, only the casing was polycorbon/ceramic.... As I recall there was roughly 9oz of steel in the Glock. (the law limited the steel to 3.7oz.... well short of that level)

And nowadays, the rise of 3D printing is the fear monger reason of choice to support this law.... As many uneducated (read: Bleeding heart morons) lawmakers said that the 3D prints could make entirely non-metal guns to defeat security systems. And to a point they were right, there is well over 200 designs for  3d printed firearms on the Deep Web.... none of which actually work/hold up to a single round fired....as the few dozen people who have disfigured themselves have found out....

And I keep my firearms in a 6 hour rated safe, not around the house. (owning firearms is a responsibility. Those who don't take that responsibility seriously are begging for a home accident!)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Duellist_D

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 224
« Reply #7 on: <10-22-15/1107:44> »

And nowadays, the rise of 3D printing is the fear monger reason of choice to support this law.... As many uneducated (read: Bleeding heart morons) lawmakers said that the 3D prints could make entirely non-metal guns to defeat security systems. And to a point they were right, there is well over 200 designs for  3d printed firearms on the Deep Web.... none of which actually work/hold up to a single round fired....as the few dozen people who have disfigured themselves have found out....


Sorry, thats wrong.
The liberator is working.
It has shit accuracy and thanks to its firing pin, its technically not 100% plastic, but it does fire its rounds on target (or near it).


Addendum:
I absolutely love this picture in your post  ;D
« Last Edit: <10-22-15/1113:27> by Duellist_D »

Checkmate

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • -]|[-
« Reply #8 on: <10-22-15/2118:41> »
@Reaver Remind me to come hang out with you when the Zombie Apocalypse rolls around.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #9 on: <10-22-15/2213:52> »
Threshold 60 would take around 21 dice to hit regularly, 18ish would be a long shot, but still a shot.  Achievable dice pools for a professional Armorer and an apprentice or two.   

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #10 on: <10-23-15/0312:03> »

And nowadays, the rise of 3D printing is the fear monger reason of choice to support this law.... As many uneducated (read: Bleeding heart morons) lawmakers said that the 3D prints could make entirely non-metal guns to defeat security systems. And to a point they were right, there is well over 200 designs for  3d printed firearms on the Deep Web.... none of which actually work/hold up to a single round fired....as the few dozen people who have disfigured themselves have found out....


Sorry, thats wrong.
The liberator is working.
It has shit accuracy and thanks to its firing pin, its technically not 100% plastic, but it does fire its rounds on target (or near it).


Addendum:
I absolutely love this picture in your post  ;D

Not heard of the Liberator... and I haven't had any luck pulling any info on it, could you provide me with a link? I'm interested in reading up on it....

As a Gun Nut, I like to follow things like this.

Oh, and here's a few other pics for you too :P
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #11 on: <10-23-15/0313:43> »
Some of my more favorite pistols from my collection:
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #12 on: <10-23-15/0314:34> »
And some of my military weapons:
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #13 on: <10-23-15/0315:22> »
And finally some of my rare longarms
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

psycho835

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 634
« Reply #14 on: <10-23-15/0624:52> »

And nowadays, the rise of 3D printing is the fear monger reason of choice to support this law.... As many uneducated (read: Bleeding heart morons) lawmakers said that the 3D prints could make entirely non-metal guns to defeat security systems. And to a point they were right, there is well over 200 designs for  3d printed firearms on the Deep Web.... none of which actually work/hold up to a single round fired....as the few dozen people who have disfigured themselves have found out....


Sorry, thats wrong.
The liberator is working.
It has shit accuracy and thanks to its firing pin, its technically not 100% plastic, but it does fire its rounds on target (or near it).


Addendum:
I absolutely love this picture in your post  ;D

Not heard of the Liberator... and I haven't had any luck pulling any info on it, could you provide me with a link? I'm interested in reading up on it....

As a Gun Nut, I like to follow things like this.

Oh, and here's a few other pics for you too :P
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberator_%28gun%29

BTW, love the arsenal. Also, the Shadowrun core book is a nice touch.