[RacoonSF]

Don't know about Hero Labs but until the Errata comes out, I go with the most conservative reading.  Your reading is likely correct, but who knows.  The 1/5 and 1/4 under the MAG column are valid for Magic stats, unlike the INI column and obviously the Blank column.  All depends on how your GM reads it.

IF an errata comes out. It's nearly 7 month since release and there's no news on an errata ....

[RacoonSF]

You mean: "there is less incentive to make combat monster"

There is still lots of reasons, and uses for shifters.

But "I am an unkillable dicing star-nosed-mole from the abys" builds are thankfully gone.

Which reasons are those?

I can see good reasons for vulpine/canine/falconine shifter for mages/stealth characters.

But I don't see any reasonable use for the feline/ursine/lupine shifters.
Pure Fluff is not enough, there have to be some reasonable build options.

When looking at the numbers, those shifters are basically naked, unarmed metahumans with some enhanced senses and stats that come at heavy karma cost. And I don't see much use in increased Logic an Charisma in animal form ...

It becomes obvious when looking at Naga. They cost 25 Karma like some shifters and are not able to use armor/weapons, too. But they get a natural +8 armor as well as some nice abilities (venom, guard) and serious stat boosts.

Well, I guess I'll just leave it be.

[Sendaz]

one of the disadvantages of SR shifters is we don't get the middle form like you see with WOD and similar, ie the wolf-man form.

The closest we ever got was only in the Stackpole novel Wolf&Raven when in last story Wolf tapped Mentor Wolf's power but kept his intellect for the big fight and did some kind of hybrid form.  Sadly it was never translated into any crunch.

In the meantime, research goes on for Shifter suitable armor by many companies, including Talbot & Chaney Fashions Ltd

[Reaver]

You mean: "there is less incentive to make combat monster"

There is still lots of reasons, and uses for shifters.

But "I am an unkillable dicing star-nosed-mole from the abys" builds are thankfully gone.

Which reasons are those?

I can see good reasons for vulpine/canine/falconine shifter for mages/stealth characters.

But I don't see any reasonable use for the feline/ursine/lupine shifters.
Pure Fluff is not enough, there have to be some reasonable build options.

When looking at the numbers, those shifters are basically naked, unarmed metahumans with some enhanced senses and stats that come at heavy karma cost. And I don't see much use in increased Logic an Charisma in animal form ...

It becomes obvious when looking at Naga. They cost 25 Karma like some shifters and are not able to use armor/weapons, too. But they get a natural +8 armor as well as some nice abilities (venom, guard) and serious stat boosts.

Well, I guess I'll just leave it be.

Feline shifters: games in South America, or West Coast UCAS (for a cougar/puma)

Usine: UCAS/NAN games. Especially NAN games.

Lupine: same as usine.


Define "reasonable" for me would you?
I can make a "reasonable" shifter very easily - for my defination of reasonable. Clearly your definition is different.

[Sterling]

one of the disadvantages of SR shifters is we don't get the middle form like you see with WOD and similar, ie the wolf-man form.

The closest we ever got was only in the Stackpole novel Wolf&Raven when in last story Wolf tapped Mentor Wolf's power but kept his intellect for the big fight and did some kind of hybrid form.  Sadly it was never translated into any crunch.

Ah yes, Wolf & Raven.  Great book.

Wolf was definitely the Archie to Raven's Nero Wolfe.  And, as Raven pointed out, Wolf was unique in that no matter how many times he was told it didn't work like that, Wolf was able to allow the Mentor Spirit Wolf to possess him.

In other words, Wolf was not a Shifter.  And as a unique NPC he was allowed to cheat.

[Hobbes]

There shouldn't be a high mechanical cost for an RP decision.  As they are currently written, shifter PCs pay a high mechanical cost compared to a similar metahuman build.  Shifters do not get a mechanical buff in line with the mechanical costs they pay. 

Lots of RP reasons to play a shifter, but there should not be a mechanical cost for RP. 

The shapechange spell costs 4 karma.  Anything to be gained by multiple forms can be done by mages for the cost of one spell.  Shifters pay a high priority, karma, and negative quality cost for a limited version of that one spell.

Being a shifter should cost 5 Karma.  Tops.  Or Shifters need some mechanical buffs. 

[Reaver]

There shouldn't be a high mechanical cost for an RP decision.  As they are currently written, shifter PCs pay a high mechanical cost compared to a similar metahuman build.  Shifters do not get a mechanical buff in line with the mechanical costs they pay. 

Lots of RP reasons to play a shifter, but there should not be a mechanical cost for RP. 

The shapechange spell costs 4 karma.  Anything to be gained by multiple forms can be done by mages for the cost of one spell.  Shifters pay a high priority, karma, and negative quality cost for a limited version of that one spell.

Being a shifter should cost 5 Karma.  Tops.  Or Shifters need some mechanical buffs.

Silly me,

I assumed that the cost they paid had something to do with the inherent bonuses that the race came with.

Just like elf, dwarf, orc, troll costs are all based off their bonuses.

You're right of course.

We should just totally get rid of them in their entirety and just let people make characters WITH those racial bonuses, but at a baseline cost.

[Sterling]

There shouldn't be a high mechanical cost for an RP decision.  As they are currently written, shifter PCs pay a high mechanical cost compared to a similar metahuman build.  Shifters do not get a mechanical buff in line with the mechanical costs they pay. 

Lots of RP reasons to play a shifter, but there should not be a mechanical cost for RP. 

The shapechange spell costs 4 karma.  Anything to be gained by multiple forms can be done by mages for the cost of one spell.  Shifters pay a high priority, karma, and negative quality cost for a limited version of that one spell.

Being a shifter should cost 5 Karma.  Tops.  Or Shifters need some mechanical buffs.

Seriously?

A Lupine Shifter gains +2d6 Initiative, Broadened Auditory Spectrum (Ultrasonic), Low-Light Vision, Natural Weapon (Bite: DV (STR + 1)P, AP–1), Shift (Metahuman Form), Uneducated, Vomeronasal Organ; Movement (x1/x5/+3)

That should cost 5 karma?

[Sendaz]

And that's not assuming they will eventually release the add-ons for shifters like Infected got where they can 'grow' and pick up additional abilities like (hopefully) Regeneration.

If that is coming, the current karma down payment to get your foot in that particular door is well worth it.

In other words, Wolf was not a Shifter.  And as a unique NPC he was allowed to cheat.

Indeed, Wolf was definitely something else.

And we loved him for it, even if we could never quite convince the GM to let us replicate it too well.

Especially in the short story where it starts off with him trying to outrun the car and his running the figures to determine how fast he was going to get that steel belt back rub.

The next part complaining how he hated math, but loved magic just before he turned the tables on the driver was one of my favourite bits.

[Hobbes]

There shouldn't be a high mechanical cost for an RP decision.  As they are currently written, shifter PCs pay a high mechanical cost compared to a similar metahuman build.  Shifters do not get a mechanical buff in line with the mechanical costs they pay. 

Lots of RP reasons to play a shifter, but there should not be a mechanical cost for RP. 

The shapechange spell costs 4 karma.  Anything to be gained by multiple forms can be done by mages for the cost of one spell.  Shifters pay a high priority, karma, and negative quality cost for a limited version of that one spell.

Being a shifter should cost 5 Karma.  Tops.  Or Shifters need some mechanical buffs.

Seriously?

A Lupine Shifter gains +2d6 Initiative, Broadened Auditory Spectrum (Ultrasonic), Low-Light Vision, Natural Weapon (Bite: DV (STR + 1)P, AP–1), Shift (Metahuman Form), Uneducated, Vomeronasal Organ; Movement (x1/x5/+3)

That should cost 5 karma?

My bad, minimal Karma costs, metahuman priority costs in line with other metahumans.  I knew what I meant.  Enhanced senses and natural attacks shouldn't be costed particularly high.  The stacking initiative bonus and the Vomeronasal Organ are certainly worth something.  But not ?C? Priority and what 10 or 15 Karma for a Lupine?  AFB so whatever the numbers are.  Stat bonuses in Animal form are not particularly useful.  In fact the animal stats are usually a restriction somewhere on the metahuman stats, lower soft cap for any of the animal stats that have a less than 6 max. 

Anyway, shifters, cost too much for what is an RP choice.

[gilga]

If you are a mage you can use the improve body spell to get more dice, as well as the armor spell. The latter may be better as alchemist preparation, as a cheap alternative to sustaining two spells.

[RacoonSF]

Feline shifters: games in South America, or West Coast UCAS (for a cougar/puma)

Usine: UCAS/NAN games. Especially NAN games.

Lupine: same as usine.


Define "reasonable" for me would you?
I can make a "reasonable" shifter very easily - for my defination of reasonable. Clearly your definition is different.

Let me clarify. Of course I can build a reasonable Shifter. I can build a Leonine Decker, Face, Rigger, Adept, Mage whatever.

My Point is: Can I build a shifter with reasonable use for animal form (beside those I mentioned)?

Your examples are all pure roleplay, which is fine but is simply not reflected in mechanics, as Hobbes explained.

Silly me,

I assumed that the cost they paid had something to do with the inherent bonuses that the race came with.

Just like elf, dwarf, orc, troll costs are all based off their bonuses.

You're right of course.

We should just totally get rid of them in their entirety and just let people make characters WITH those racial bonuses, but at a baseline cost.

That's the point. Other races get racial bonuses without additinonal karma costs.
For Shifters it's priority C and a lot of Karma.
For Fox and Canina the bonuses are probably worth the 5-10 Karma on top.

But espacially the Feline Shifters get less bonuses for more karma. Low-Light-Vision is useful, but Balance Augmenter and Ultrasonic Heraing are nice gimmicks with very limited uses. And the Claws ... which character would need those in metahuman form?

All other bonuses (including Initiative as I understand it) only apply in animal form.








Sendaz wrote (sorry, quote somehow didn't work)

"And that's not assuming they will eventually release the add-ons for shifters like Infected got where they can 'grow' and pick up additional abilities like (hopefully) Regeneration.

If that is coming, the current karma down payment to get your foot in that particular door is well worth it."


That would be totally awesome!

But i doubt there will be any add-ons on shifters. If you look at Run Faster it is obvious that Shifters are not considered important. The section on Infected is very well made with lots of details, explanations, mechanics, fluff, good editing and some hints on future works. And in these forums there have also been hints on future works on Infected and Augmentations. It is obvious that they invested a lot of time and thought into balancing the Infected with powers, weaknesses, costs etc.

On the other hand, the Shifter section is quite short, lacks a lot of important explanations on mechanics and has serious editing issues. Not even the Shift-Power itself is explained. The Karma costs for the races follows no pattern I can understand.