[Whiskeyjack]

You know, in my years of playing, never did a chromer... I really enjoy the growth potential of magic. I guess there is a first time for everything though.

I'll give it a shot; it doesn't seem too rough

Thanks!

Sure thing. I'll add that the big benefit to Transhuman Prototype here will be a bunch of bioware you'd already want like a reflex recorder or two, Muscle Toner, Tailored Pheromones, and orthoskin. The extra point of Essence goes pretty far.

In the alternative don't worry about Muscle Toner as part of the Prototype stuff; get Muscle Replacement instead (it's cheaper and also boosts STR but is also hungrier for Essence).

[ZeldaBravo]

For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.

Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements.  Or don't count as qualities for somethings.  Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means.  Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit.  But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.

tl;dr - You must pay the karma cost, but they don't count against the P/N Qualities karma limit. Ways and some other stuff like Infection are Qualities, but they are not Positive Qualities or Negative Qualities.

Do you guys have a link to this?

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19863.msg355723#msg355723
That's all I can provide for now. I'll look up some more info.

[adzling]

Ways most certainly do count against the Positive Quality limit, although they do NO cost double post chargen.

You can only take one Martial Art at chargen (and they do not cost double post chargen) but it does not seem to count against the Positive Quality limit.

[adzling]

FYI you most certainly can build an elven gunslinger adept/ face with 'ware.
I'll post the build I used for chargen in a bit.

You know, in my years of playing, never did a chromer... I really enjoy the growth potential of magic. I guess there is a first time for everything though.

I'll give it a shot; it doesn't seem too rough

Thanks!

[adzling]

This is a pistol adept/ face build that uses biocompatibility and prototype transhuman to cram in the 'ware at almost no cost to magic and essence to get two jobs done, face and gunslinger adept.
You could easily swap out pistols for automatics if you like but given where he will likely be going with his Facial Sculpt, Melanin Control and Keratin Control it's likely a pistol will be a better weapon.
He has essence room for more 'ware post chargen, most likely all bioware due to his bio-compatibility.

I had originally built this guy with Way of the Burnout but stacking Bio-compatibilty with Prototype Transhuman is a much better option if you only take one or two points of essence for 'ware.

His edge sucks but it's only 10 karma post chargen to raise it.

He has JoaT so post chargen you can easily buy new skills or raise your relatively low social skills easily.

This build primarily works because it optimizes the essence efficiency of 'ware vs. adept magical enhancements where relevant and uses the adept powers for face skills that can't be found elsewhere (no 'ware for that, except tailored pheromones which he has).

This leaves him with about $20k to spend on equipment and Sin.

face pistol adept
METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6/8, R 5/6, S 3, W 3, L 3, I 5, C 8, ESS 5.48, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 0
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 13
Physical Initiative: 10/11+2D6
Active Skills: Athletics Group 1, Con 1, Impersonation 1, Influence Group 2, Perception 4, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 6, Sneaking (Urban +2) 6
Languages: English N
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Agile Defender, Bio compatible - bioware, Jack of All Trades, Master of None, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Prototype Transhuman, SINner (Corporate SIN): Renraku
Adept Powers: Authoritative Tone (2), Combat Sense (1), Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (6dicepool), Hang Time (1), Keratin Control, Melanin Control (5h), Traceless Walk, Voice Control (1) (13dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
   Muscle Toner - Biocompatible (2)
   Smartlink (Alphaware)
   Synaptic Booster - Prototype Metahuman (1)
   Tailored Pheromones - Prototype Transhuman (3)
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2015 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.

[Achsin]

Combined with Boosted Reflexes you can make a poor man's version of the Lightning Reflexes quality, You miss out on +1 initiative and +1 defense and ¥10k, but it saves you 10 karma, which could possibly be more useful if your build required it.

As far as using it to replace attribute points that you would otherwise lose out on, it's pretty worthless, unless you have a rather high resource priority and were planning on taking really low attributes. It is more useful if you are looking to save your max magic/resonance but want some of the extra enhancements that bioware can offer, especially with the some of the monetarily cheaper bioware offerings that would not put as much of a strain on the lower resource priority.

[gilga]

I think that some extra armor is always worth it for adepts. orthskin 2 alpha+ bone density augmentation 2 alpha + reflex reorder or sleep regulator. (regular) Lets do the reflex reorder.

you get +4 armor (worth of 2 PP), you get +1 for one of your adept abilities. For a total of 2.5 power points worth in augmentations.  Cost about 40k you can reduce by downgrading orthskin and bone from alpha to normal. (and giving up the reflex reorder). 

If 40k is too expensive for 24K you can get just the +4 armor, (and Str +1 physical if you are into that thing).  Armor is the one thing mundanes can get a lot more than awakened I think 24k is not a big commitment and can fit into your build even with resources D.

[Rule of Three]

Thanks a ton WhiskeyJack, Adzling, and gilga.

Some great ideas have me tweaking and staring at two very different build ideas for the new game I'm in. I love working with people who don't just slot knowledgesofts about this. 

Much appreciated!

[adzling]

FYI the other Prototype Transhuman thread has the priorities for this toon and spells out some of his dice pools.

[UnLimiTeD]

Do you guys have a link to this?

This was from the respective Freelancer:

Are Ways supposed to cost double after character creation?
They should be treated the same way as martial arts. Yes they are qualities, but the cost is the same after or during character creation. An adept is allowed to find his Way during the campaign.

I copied the quote from another post here, to an other forum, and now back because I don't have the original link, so clicking on it will lead to a whole lot of nothing.
It's what he wrote, but I don't have proof.

[adzling]

That's the quote I remember, so they do count against positive Quality limits in chargen.

[Triskavanski]

Another good use for it..

being a freekin changeling without having to you know.. spend an arm and leg in karma, social modifiers and the like.  Cause for some reason being born a mutant (Or made into one later) is different than being born a mutant. Cause when your born a mutant, you didn't have a choice. So... Shame! But when you're born a mutant you did have a choice. So Rejoice.

[Facemage]

Can you prove that the cost of the ways does not increase after chargen? Page numbers and something like that? Mission rules (and HeroLab) do not count. The only reference I can see is:
"Players can amend previously created characters and retroactively purchase a Way. This is per the gamemaster's discretion. See p. 103, SR5, for more information about purchasing and paying off qualities." SG p. 176.

Why there is a link to p. 103? The only essential information are the cost (2x listed Karma cost) and no time limits. You can buy them at any time.

[Triskavanski]

Well with those criteria, you can't even prove that 5e technomancers don't cost 30 karma to submerge the first level and then an additional 60 karma for next submerssion

[Facemage]

It seems that the cost is probably 40 after chargen. Because RAW support that and it is in missions also.

"For the Adept Ways, is the cost to gain one after creation 20 karma or 40 karma?

I'm adding in a Retcon rule.  It's 20 if done as a Retcon, it's 40 if done later on.  Retcons can be done before your first game session after a new book becomes "Missions Legal" (or, in the case of Street Grimoire, before your next game session after v1.3 of the FAQ drops).
-Bull"

Source:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg325421