[Top Dog]

Yes Brackhouse. It's such a good option that I contemplate not doing it on my char because it'd be too good. Especially since it's Logic + Sleaze and my character is hermetic,  so yay 20 dice.

You can't specialize in it though. It's not a skill.

[Xenon]

EvoTech Himitsu already have a module hardwired into the board.
Since it isn't a cyberdeck it cannot accept a second module (such as Program Carrier).



SR5-DT p. 66 Device Modifications
Unless otherwise noted, a device can only have one modification.

SR5-DT p. 66 Add a module
Most devices can only have one module, although cyberdecks can have two—one in the normal module slot, and the one you hardwire in.

SR5-DT p. 62 EvoTech Himitsu
the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board, giving it Sleaze 5.

[Xenon]

I want to offer you an alternative way of reading the description of Smoke and Mirrors


1)
"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute ... to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a higher limit on all your Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (and not when someone is trying to spot your smartgun with matrix perception).


2)
"... with an equivalent amount of noise added to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a negative dice pool modifier on all your Data Processing, Firewall, Attack and Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (such as when you use matrix perception to spot someone running silent or if your devices have unwanted marks on them).


3)
"The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program."
This might or might not mean that when someone use the Trace Icon (and not Matrix Perception) against the device that run this program (and not a device that is just slaved to the device that run the program) they will get a negative dice pool modifier.


Discuss.

[JackVII]

EvoTech Himitsu already have a module hardwired into the board.

SR5-DT p. 62 EvoTech Himitsu
the commlink has a stealth module integrated into the board, giving it Sleaze 5.

We'll have to check with Kincaid or one of the other freelancers on this one. The person writing the EvoTech may have intended that as a (generic term) module instead of a (game term) module, particularly since there isn't a module that adds a Matrix Attribute in the book, just a modification.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Xenon
That may or may not be the case, especially given that whole integral modification vs not firearms have to deal with.

To my mind, the integral Sleaze 5 rating of the Evotech should not prevent a user from adding a dongle or modification; in this case, the sleaze attribute comes from a module that is integral to the unit, which in my opinion means it does not take up the modification slot. Pending official comment, I don't see that view changing anytime soon because that's how I view other mods for guns and the like.

As for your alternative reading of the rule mechanics, I don't think that meshes with the intent of the program so I disagree on that as well. If the writers had intended for both the attribute increase and noise to only apply to actions taken with the deck they could have specified this but they didn't, which to my mind implies that the sleaze attribute is increased for all intents and purposes, while the noise applies only to actions taken. If the opposite was true, the program would be much less useful, as you would get a limit increase but a dice pool decrease which would be significantly unbalanced.

[firebug]

I'm just miffed about this on a deck.  Seriously, it's...

Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build.  First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality.  Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found--  Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.

Then we get a potent cyberdeck.  The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable.  Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber.  Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in).  Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage).  You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15.  Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.

With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty--  6 or below stands almost no chance.

You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you.  You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.

You're not even that disadvantaged!  You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected.  Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident!  Just logical stuff to be more effective.

I mean...  Shit!  That's 8 hits on average.  Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.

[Herr Brackhaus]

You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*

[astaroth999]

I'm just miffed about this on a deck.  Seriously, it's...

Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build.  First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality.  Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found--  Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.

Then we get a potent cyberdeck.  The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable.  Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber.  Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in).  Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage).  You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15.  Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.

With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty--  6 or below stands almost no chance.

You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you.  You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.

You're not even that disadvantaged!  You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected.  Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident!  Just logical stuff to be more effective.

I mean...  Shit!  That's 8 hits on average.  Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.

Thats i feel its way op if it really works like this. This is basically like taking out most of the danger of matrix and the risk of running wireless equipments. The chances of someone spotting you and bricking ur equipment is way too low.

All this ask for is for the gm to escalate the arms war in matrix to deal with u.

[firebug]

You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*

Thanks!  <3

I'm thinking it will be errata'd to be "the penalty caused by Smoke-and-Mirrors cannot be reduced by Noise Reduction."  It's a simple fix.

Though really, that only half-solves it.  It wouldn't make what I described impossible, it would just mean you're more likely to fail your attack actions.  Which, in a host...  Well, would mostly be marking devices you have a direct connection to, since the IC wouldn't be able to spot you (and thus you could ignore them).  Even with -5 dice, you've probably still got enough dice to mark a security camera via direct connection.

[Top Dog]

I want to offer you an alternative way of reading the description of Smoke and Mirrors

1)
"This program increases the cyberdeck’s Sleaze attribute ... to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a higher limit on all your Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (and not when someone is trying to spot your smartgun with matrix perception).

2)
"... with an equivalent amount of noise added to any tests performed with the deck."
This might or might not mean you get a negative dice pool modifier on all your Data Processing, Firewall, Attack and Sleaze actions you perform with the deck (such as when you use matrix perception to spot someone running silent or if your devices have unwanted marks on them).

3)
"The noise also affects Trace Icon tests performed against the deck using the program."
This might or might not mean that when someone use the Trace Icon (and not Matrix Perception) against the device that run this program (and not a device that is just slaved to the device that run the program) they will get a negative dice pool modifier.

Discuss.

Interesting read, but I disagree (to point 1).

The grammar doesn't hold up. You don't  "increase the ... Sleaze attribute ... to any test" (emphasis mine), you increase it for any test. Pedantic point, perhaps, and it could be that the writers miswrote the sentence, but as written it can't support your interpretation. It would be hard to rewrite the sentence with some minor alterations to say that as well (you'd have to restructure the whole sentence to get it to say that).

I think point two is a yes, though. Matrix perception is still a test performed with the deck. But if that's a noise penalty, it's still negatable. Plus, you decide the penalty, so you can temporarily lower it when you want to do stuff, so it's still a net bonus for you.

The specific callout for Sleaze in the line quoted in 3 is weird though, unless combined with point 1, which does lend credibility to that argument (although, in my opinion, not enough). Sleaze is already increasing the Trace Icon defense test, so that would mean that the program gives double that bonus to resisting Trace Icon tests (and, like you say, only Trace Icon, only against the device running the program). Which is oddly specific. It makes sense combined with 1.

[Xenon]

Could it be the intent, even if the grammar is slightly off?

1-5 positive sleaze limit for sleaze tests
1-5 noise penalty on all tests (including but not limited to sleaze)
1-5 negative dice pool modifier to Trace Icon against the device
....no extra protection against matrix perception?



The other alternative:

1-5 positive sleaze limit for sleaze tests
1-5 noise penalty on all tests (including but not limited to sleaze)
1-5 negative dice pool modifier to Trace Icon against the device
1-5 positive dice pool modifier when defending against matrix perception and trace icon and any other defense that use sleaze.

Up to 10 dice relatively bonus vs trace icon?? Strange way to word it if that really was the intent?

[Top Dog]

Perhaps. The fluff of the program does indicate it's specifically designed to counter being physically located (IE Trace Icon). But then why is Sleaze increased at all?

By the way, if we follow your interpretation for point 1, the extra Sleaze still helps agains Matrix Perception against the deck itself; however you interpret it, that's still a test performed with the deck (even if it is not an action). It would only make a difference for slaved devices.

[Xenon]

That depend upon if a defence, resistance and/or damage soak "test" really is a "test you perform with the deck" or not.

I think we can both agree that it applies to success tests, opposed tests and extended tests.

The test to avoid getting spotted when running silent is actually an opposed Matrix perception test performed by someone else. If this test is successful then he spot you. If he fail then he can use "Trying Again".

You don't "fail" when defending or resisting a test.
You don't use "Trying Again" if your defense "fail".

Having said that, the book do talk about them as Defense "Tests" and Resistance "Tests". Then again they don't list Defense Tests and Resistance Tests under "Tests and Limits".

To be honest I am not sure what to think. Yet. I need to read the book some more first


I want to belive that smoke and mirrors just reduce the chance of trace icon (and increase your sleaze limit and give you noise) but it might very well be supposed to give you and all your slaved devices up to 5 extra dice against matrix perception (sounds a bit too good to be true for a single program if you ask me).

[Rooks]

You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Seriously, that was excellently written. Bravo! *slowclap*

Considering Matrix perception is a complex action and afterwards the person spotted can roll their hide to stop from being spotted, yes cat and mouse is a thing also give a use for that Fresnel Fabric

[PiXeL01]

The more I read the entry the more I'm convinced that Smoke-and-mirrors is that good. While signal scrub (uses a program slot), Vectored Signal filter (mod slot) and datajack would counteract the noise generated by the program they cannot help you against the noise of the area you are in. Having a direct connection of course takes care of that.