[UnLimiTeD]

They have to live long enough to accrue so much karma that the decker can't spend karma into his hacking skills anymore, because only then can they pull ahead.
As for flexibility versus power:
The Decker changes himself, while the TM changes the Matrix. It's hard to put a label on that.
In the end a decker will be able to do most things well, but not everything at once, while a TM will be able to do a few things well, but those really good, and he can do unique things no one else can ever do.
Honestly, Technomancers would be in a lot better place right now with less Fade, as the unqiue part comes with a ridiculous cost. It's the equivalent of a mage casting a fireball automatically setting himself on fire.
This might not be the scope of this thread, however.

[DARKBLADEZD73]

Hi!
     Thanks for starting this thread because I have just started playing my very first technomancer and it is in my opinion so very hard to play. To me it is much like playing a second-hand decker.
  In SR4 Technomancer's where like MATRIX gods, little g's..,My point is I was lead to believe they where unique and rare and cool
and oh look they are just another archetype that melds into a universe full of unique and rare people...except they are just like deckers..but better...kinda.

  I even took the Otaku to Tehcnomancer quality so I could be even more unique and I just don't. I have limited TECHNOMANCER ACTIONS and a ton of Decker/Hacker/Matrix actions...but at the same rate and ability of a decker? Shouldn't the technomancer be better than the decker? Just as the Magician's and the Adept's better than the Magic Adept? Is that not the point of playing them?
 
  If you read the story behind their creation, You would think they are extremely dangerous and can be a force to be reckoned with. I just think they are really capable deckers. If you build them right, who do not really stand out in my opinion. I would rather play an AI. It is far more capable than a Technomancer in my opinion.
 
  Other than those comments I do not know the ROW on Tehcnomancers that well other than I can mostly agree with everything listed above. Mostly because I think SR5 is Slipping away from their basic concept...Which is...EVERYTHING HAS LIMITS...AND A PRICE! That needs to always be  remembered.

Also, please clarify the rule with examples. Show us how you the writes/creators do it so we can follow in your footsteps. Thank you FOR ALL YOU HARD WORK! LOVE YOU ALL FOR MAKING THE BEST RPG OUT THERE!

[Rob Hollday]

Post removed to prevent going off topic. It it will be re-posted elsewhere.

[UnLimiTeD]

Now I'm not sure this is the right place, but that is a seriously helpful "How to" for aspiring technomancers.

[Beta-Max]

Seriously man, well thought out..I'll have to read it again when not on my phone..but repost it to its own thread..otherwise it'll cause serous off topic here.

[Rob Hollday]

Good advice UnLimiTeD and Beta-Max. I will re-posted it to its own thread under Reddit next week. Ill put the link here if anyone is interested.

As promised, here is the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/3aq8zb/technomancer_hacks_aka_how_to_play_a_technomancer/

[Triskavanski]

Why not post a new thread here?

[Finstersang]

Nachtland
Another mixed bag of Ideas and suggestions, some of which I proposed before, but fleshed out:

General:
- TMs should get the +2 Hot-Sim Bonus on Resonance Abilitites (at least on Threading)
- TMs should automatically recieve the Bonus of a Skilljack with [Resonance] Rating. A nice and fluffy little bonus, and also a logical prerequisite for return of the Biowire-Echoe. (balancing-wise, I go by the german Core Rulebook where Skilljacks cost only Rating*2000)
- I don´t think TMs should necissarily get a Skinlink Effect from start, but they should have an option for direct connections before Submersion. Let them "channel" their Powers through a Trode Net / Datajack + Cable.
- The current Fading Values on many Complex Forms are quite off. This means they are not a good benchmark for new CFs, and this also means that they probably should be subjected to an Errata.
- Please bring back Streams and Paragons from 4th Editions "Unwired". They were a great tool to give a TM more depth. 

Complex Forms:
Some ideas for Complex forms. I leave the Fading Values out, since they should be balanced as a whole after the whole TM redesign. Also, please don´t be reluctant to use them if they fit - I don´t consider these an intellectual property of mine

Enabling Touch, Enabler, Mass Enabler: Resisted with Willpower (or DR) + Firewall, these Complex Forms switch on wireless functionality  (as long as the necissary parts have not been removed) by force, either by Touch, on sight or in a  [Level] Meters Radius around the TM. The device is then locked in Wireless Mode for as long as the CF is sustained, probably with some active Resistance action for the victims to break the grip of the CF (Talked about these before. I think they have a potential to be huge game-changer for TMs.)

Gremlins Touch: A last-resort Close Combat Trick for TMs against Drones and Augmented targets. Like with a Touch Spell, the TM first has to make Physical Contact with the Target. Then a kind of "Resonance Shock" can be applied, attacking Cyberware and Elektronics. Drones resist with Firewall+Pilot and take the Net Hits as negative Dice Pool Modifikator and Matrix Damage.
Augmented Targets are only affected if they have at least one electronically enhanced Cyberware implant (Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating will probably stay safe, but Cyberlimbs, Cybersenses and Wired Reflexes won´t). They resist with Willpower+Essence(!) and take the negative Dice Pool Modifikator only on those Tests where such an implant is involved. They also take Stun Damage through Electric Shocks and Spasms, but this Damage is limited by the Essence loss through Cyberware (round up). The Dice Pool Modifikator holds up for [Level] Combat Turns after losing touch.

Tech Defense: Sustained CF. Resonance reaches out to defend the TM (or another target?) against wireless guided attacks, be it wireless (Smart-)Guns, Monowhips, Drones or even Grenades and missiles, letting them missfire or fizzle. Defense Tests against these attacks get the Net Hits of the CF as bonus dice (much like the Deflection Spell). Wireless AE attacks are disrupted, forcing them to to explode at least at a range of [Net Hits] Meters around the target.

Digital Invisibility:   Sustained CF. Kind of an "Invisibility Spell" against wireless cameras, sensors and cybersenses - the infamous "laughing man hack". Resisted with Intuition + Firewall. Nice Synergy with the "Enabling" CFs!

Neural Diagnosis: Offers the Effects of an implanted Biomonitor and maybe also bonus dice for technically enhanced First Aid and Medicine Tests. More of a niche CF, but it makes sense if a TM can convert biological/neural input into usefull data.

Resonance Shield: I was quite puzzled why that one was not in the Core Rules. A simple, sustained matrix damage absorber, granting its net hits on Matrix Damage Soak tests and making the TM a lot less squishy in the Matrix.

Mask of the Idoru: A sustained social enhancement CF for matrix communication. Bonuses should probably differ for uses against AR, Hot-Sim and Cold-Sim.

Liberator: Another Entry in the "Stuff Deckes would love to do"-section: Resisted with Willpower + Firewall of the Master Device, the CF disrupts a single Master-Slave connection. Note that this doesnt necessarily mean that the device doesnt take any orders from its former master, but it loses the additional protection.

Enslave: And now the other way around, again resisted with Willpower + Firewall. This slaves a Device to the Linving Persona of the TM. Of course this is only possible against "free" devices without an active Master. Again, this doesnt mean the device will follow the TMs orders, but it is defended by the Living Persona against outside attacks

Beacon:  Resisted with Intuition + Stealth. Marks a known Target in the Matrix as with a flashing Beacon, breaking silent mode and rendering all attempts to Hide from Matrix perception unsuccessfull.

Also there´s  the Resonance Spike for Matrix Damage, but nothing to inflict Biofeedback Damage. A bold Proposal:

Grey spike: Resistance with Willpower+Firewall. Inflicts Net Hits as Biofeedback Damage (Stun only). Using neural channels normal biofeedback attacks cannot access, this CF can even damage AR-users, given that they use a DNI or Trodes for their AR experience. In this case however, the CF inflicts only half the damage.

Black Spike: Resistance with Willpower+Firewall. Inflicts Net Hits as Biofeedback Damage. Using neural channels normal biofeedback attacks cannot access, this CF can even physically damage Cold-Sim users. In this case however, the CFs Damage is split between Stun and Physical Monitor, the Stun Monitor getting the bigger portion if the Damage Code is uneven.

The Stun Damage against AR targets / The Physical Damage against Cold-Sim Target is another thing a Decker can´t accomplish. These will hardly knock out an AR-User or kill a Cold-Sim user, but its probably enough to make  people a little bit afraid of the TMs Powers. And according to the Fluff about TMs, there should be some reasons to be afraid.

Sprites:
Nothing much to say here, the existing Sprites are actually quite strong, making the "Petnomancer" the only currently recommandable way to play a TM. There could be, however, more Sprites for different streams of Technomancers, like there were in 4th ed.
(Personally, as a GM and a Player, I don´t like pet classes and I´d like to  think that many players think the same. As a player, you want to do stuff yourself, and from a GMs perspective, handling another 4-5 entities in a Combat and OS counts gives you headaches and the other players a serious case of the snores. So my proposal is to make TMs less dependent on a big, micromanaged library of registered Sprites and more about fast and intuitive actions.)

Echoes:
Here, I´d like to  refer to the additional Echoes from 4th Editions "Unwired": A great pool of ideas to draw upon. Especially the return of Biowires and the Enhanced Biowires (a.k.a. Resonance Wired Reflexes) would be cool.

[Triskavanski]

Actually I had a thought on a new sprite, And I blieve there was one like it in unwired

Guardian Sprite - features high firewall and low everything else. Its main sprite power is that it can function as a barrier between you and an enemy.

Kinda got the Idea with Totchikomas in the latest GITs where they begin assisting the major to block off a powerful attack so she couldn't get hacked.

[SoulGambit]

I want to be able to look at a garage door, be like, "Open." and then that door just opens. None of this mark business. None of this hacking business. The TM wants technology to do a thing, it should do that thing as though the TM were the natural owner giving it a command. TMs should not be subtle, or nuanced, or versatile like Deckers are. They shouldn't be able to use their TM skills to hack and gain long term advantages on a device or system or what have you, but where they walk, the TM's will be done in the matrix. This should be done without eating a ton of Fading.

Technomancers should not require tons of system mastery to make viable. They should be easy and straightforward to build. Take Resonance. Buy some complex forms. Take the Resonance related skills. Done. Nothing else should be necessary to fill the "hacker" role as a Technomancer.

Interfacing with the Matrix like a Decker should be secondary, though possible.

Please decouple mental attributes from the Living Persona's traits. It creates an expectation or a pressure to raise all your mental attributes as high as possible, which doesn't create a healthy experience when creating a technomancer.

Let them Skinlink by default or have a Complex Form that hooks them into devices like a DNI.

Clarify and fix Machine Sprites, and their ability to grant everyone a +Bajillion bonus on maybe everything.

[DeathStrobe]

Thinking of how to give TM's a nuyen sink, I think the ability to set up Resonance Wells would be a good way to burn money. A TM needs to buy a bunch of outdated hardware, set it up in a barren corner of the real world that doesn't see a lot of Matrix traffic, spends Level-days to set up the well, to get a well at Level. Then the Resonance well creates a "positive" noise for the TM while in this location making it cheaper/easier to submerge, learn complex forms, compile sprites, and any other resonance abilities. Basically act like a super magic lodge for TMs. And that deckers get hit with Level-noise which gives TMs a huge advantage and would also encourage corporations to have TM's set up Wells in their corporate offices to screw with deckers, or would prevent them as to not affect normal Matrix traffic. It'd also be an interesting liabilities to have dissonance TMs turn them into dissonance pools, which they'd have a much easier time if they physically geeked the creator of the well.

[dezmont]

My main issue with technomancers is not necesarily how powerful they are.

Technomancers have a lot of great tools that make them better than hackers. Ignoring OS, most likely but not explicitly having undetectable hacking options, and sprites are all really good and inarguably make you better than a decker, especially because once you get a deck you have most of the advantages of a decker.

The main issue with technomancers is the resource intensity to be one. While there may be disagreement on technomnacers as being stronger or weaker than a decker they inarguably cost far too much to be, take far too much energy to act, and have too little in terms of aiding outside of matrix actions.

Being a decker is relatively inexpensive and the resources priority allows deckers to not just get a good deck but also to grab some minor augmentation to give them a notable presence in meat. Furthermore because they can take augmentation and most of their good implants are low essence they have a lot of room to grow into the classic samurai-deckers of yore. The fact that you can steal cyberdecks relatively easily also allows upgrades if you can wipe the owner. Programs are a very large power boost at times, and are laughably inexpensive to the point there is little reason not to just own all of them. With only three primary attributes, one of them being willpower, a stat good for everyone, deckers can easily splice out into another role, which invariably makes a role stronger because if optimized you are presumably synergizing your roles and spending resources efficiently to get more for less. Think an ace samurai with maxed agility going into sneaking because, hey, most of the cost has already been sunk.

Technomancers meanwhile have an extremely painful priority table that locks out any exotic metatype, which is made worse by the fact that only two metatypes, dwarf and elf, have any synergy with technomancy. Compounding this is the fact that technomancers need to spend karma on complex forms unless they set technomancy to A, need to have an embarassing amount of skills, and absolutely can't afford to dump any mental stat save possibly charisma. Due to needing quite a few skills, amazing mental stats, and the lack of the ability to use 'ware without harming your gift, taking a sub-role as a technomancer is essentially impossible and thus technomancers weaker as a whole. Sprites are extremely effective, possibly the strongest tool on the matrix possible, but basing a technomancer around them borderline requires you to be abusive with downtime and spend weeks worth of registering and compiling rolls to work out. Complex forms range from rather terrible, such as Static Veil and Tattle Tale (And in my opinion transcendent grid due to how trivial it is to jump grids as a technomancer, but apparently I am the outlier there) to situationally strong, like puppeteer. However due to their high usage cost they fail to be the main tool of the technomancer like spells are for mages. The only good use of complex forms are when they can be spammed at 2 fading, such as with cleaner, to good effect or if they can become part of combos that allow you to exploit the way the matrix is set up. Puppeteer is devistating because the matrix isn't like the physical world and thus it is not really comparable to mind control, for instance, because a well played puppeteer, depending on GM, may be one of the most subtle ways to completely screw everything.

What is worse, many technomancer upgrade paths are complete garbage. Echos are, for the most part, a complete joke. Both compared to deckers spending karma on skills to get better and compared to initiations, which fundementally change how you can use magic and serve to make your mage unique rather than giving them +1 to their limit to do whatever. There are way too many trap echoes and too few that are actually good.



Essentially, in my mind, technomancers have massive stability and playability issues, not power issues. A lot of options might be good based on your GM, such as puppeteer, diagonstics, or sneaky resonance actions, but if your GM shuts them down then technomancers become unplayably bad. Because almost nothing a technomancer does has any synergy with any role they can actually enter, technomancers end up being one note and have to ride on the slight advantages they have on mages. While 5e has had some success with extra options expanding playability for underutilized options, such as R&G managing to bring longarms up to a point where they are very good and compelling rather than a more limited, slightly more powerful automatic, I don't believe that technomancers can be really fixed with a single quality. They need a bunch of options opened up to them at zero cost that allow them to register sprites more efficiently in downtime. They need more complex forms that can just be used on their own rather than as part of some weird scheme. They need more clarity in how the resonance actually works, such as if it is actually invisible and if technomancers can get a direct connection with trodes or not.

Most of all though, if technos are going to be an all consuming role, they need more options like diagnostics and gremlins. Hacking in 5e is now much more intergrated into the core run but it is still by no means something you can justify as your only skill. Combat hacking is for the most part a joke, and because technos are not that much better than deckers they can't really force hacking to do anything special. They need more abilities relating to devices as they operate in the meat, and they need to be good. Good to the point where the fluff is going to need to expand to accomidate them, such as allowing technomancers to cause physical harm with their abilities (Which has precident with dissonant technomancers) and allowing them more mentalist technopath abilities. It is that or re-writing the entire priority table to put technomancers on par with adepts and aspected mages, which frankly I doubt will happen.

[Herr Brackhaus]

A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?

[Miri]

A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?

Why not divorce it compleatly from your mental stats and make it based off resonance..

say.. an Res+1, Res, Res -1 and a Res -2?

that they can shuffle around like a cyber deck..?

[Triskavanski]

I dunno. Possibly. It would mean they wouldn't need them all as high as they could go.  But honestly, you still need will power, logic and Intuition as thats all the matrix skills being keyed off those three (Will power allowing for fade)  So it would save you like 4 points from CHA that you could put into physical stats. But the low CHA means you couldn't start off with many sprites. Low logic means you can't have many sprites after creation.