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What is the current general opinion on 5E products?

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MijRai

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« Reply #135 on: <01-11-16/2228:57> »
Agreed, Reaver.  I love seeing the writers pop in and give their two cents. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Novocrane

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« Reply #136 on: <01-11-16/2237:57> »
Quote
Well, after reading 9 pages of "YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRBoPveyETc

For comparison with people actually being personally insulted on the internet.

Zweiblumen

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« Reply #137 on: <01-11-16/2249:20> »
And people wonder why the freelancers are becoming more and more rare here.

3 years ago, you couldn't open a single thread without a freelancer commenting on it. Be it funny, informative, sharing an idea, or just chewing the shit.

Now, you can't find a freelancer to save your life!



Well, after reading 9 pages of "YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!", I know why they are so rare here now.


And I have to admit, if I was a freelancer, i'd give many of you here the double finger salute, and not ever come back! Heck I'd be sorely tempted to NOT write anything again for SR as you're all just a bunch of whiny spoiled little crybabies and have no appreciation for time and effort I put in....


Be DAMN thankful that the freelancers have heart and soul for SR. If it wasn't for them, you'd have nothing at all.

Because you can't "like" things on forums.  THIS.  All of this.
@Reaver: The only time we've actually interacted on this board you attacked me personally, but even taking that into account I agree with >90% of what you say on these boards.  Thanks for speaking up for folks as often as you do.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #138 on: <01-11-16/2254:24> »
And people wonder why the freelancers are becoming more and more rare here.

3 years ago, you couldn't open a single thread without a freelancer commenting on it. Be it funny, informative, sharing an idea, or just chewing the shit.

Now, you can't find a freelancer to save your life!



Well, after reading 9 pages of "YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!", I know why they are so rare here now.


And I have to admit, if I was a freelancer, i'd give many of you here the double finger salute, and not ever come back! Heck I'd be sorely tempted to NOT write anything again for SR as you're all just a bunch of whiny spoiled little crybabies and have no appreciation for time and effort I put in....


Be DAMN thankful that the freelancers have heart and soul for SR. If it wasn't for them, you'd have nothing at all.

Gamers pretty much are the people with the biggest sense of entitlement these days. All the way from PnP gamers to console video gamers to PC video gamers to MMO players specifically, there is only one trait in common, griping incessantly about pretty much every aspect of their chose type of game and system within that type.
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Duellist_D

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« Reply #139 on: <01-11-16/2328:14> »
Oh please stop this "entitlement" and "whining" bull, it works both ways and is really a non-argument.

Customer <=> Producer relationships aren't one sided.
Sure, you can say "screw them, i got their money, they got their book, what do they want", but then you really shouldn't wonder if your sales go down.
Because a P&P product usually ISN'T A SINGLE PRODUCT BUT A WHOLE LINE.
You want to CONTINUE SELLING stuff.
You can't continue selling stuff if you piss off your customers to much, because, like the oh so wunderful "entitlement" argument tells you, YOU as a retailer aren't entitled to my money. I give it for a good product. You deliver, i pay.
You don't deliver, i don't pay.
Easy as that.

And with a little bit of common sense or economic thinking, one would come to the realization that generally, customers (paying ones, that is) that voice critique on a product don't do this because they hate it all and generally just want to troll, but rather because they LIKE the product and would actually like to spend MORE money on it.
Which is good, because when SR-license produces Money, Topps is happy. And when Topps is happy, Catalyst keeps the license, meaning they can let the freelancers create more books, which makes the customers (hopefully) happy, which leads to them spending money, which completes the circle. Everybody is happy, everybody wins.
Pissed-off customers on the other hand DON'T spend money on books which doesn't lead to new books being written which leads to no money for CGL which leads to no money for Topps generated via the license which leads to very unhappy persons in many places. Many people lose.

Now, Being happy and being pissed-off aren't black-and-white states. Its a big spectrum in which people move back and forth, with incentives and reasons on both sides. Its natural and you won't ever be able to put all people in one corner. But you can and should listen to what the people who are moving are saying and how many people are singing the same tune. Because there lies the key to tipping the scale to the benefical side for you.
Sure, there will be crap among it. and it needs to be filtered, but discarding it all as jibbering or whatever is only going to hurt your business in the long run.
You just don't want to be the Internet Explorer of 2007.





[/quote]appreciation for time and effort I put in....
Quote
I appreciate your time by spending time of my own to write a comment on it.
Contrary to what some modern day political groups like to say, one isn't entitled to false positive praise as an adult.
"i spend a lot of time and effort on it" is really a non-excuse, especially not in an evnironment where money flows..

Mirikon

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« Reply #140 on: <01-11-16/2343:24> »
Very true. Back in the day, forget things like errata or updated FAQs on a website. You had the book, and then the GM sat down and made house rules for things that didn't fit. The End.
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Duellist_D

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« Reply #141 on: <01-12-16/0009:26> »
That might be true or not, all4bigguns, but in neither case would the issues be relevant for a discussion on the perceived quality of Shadowrun products.

[Redacted, because the post it was referring to isn't existing anymore.]

If you are happy with certain or all aspects of SR 5, feel free to voice it out loud, I'm sure the relevant people will appreciate that.
But don't try to deploy a silenc field on criticism by going the "people who criticise are just crybabies with to much time" route.
Thats insulting and not productive.

I want more quality SR 5 stuff and i'm happy to continue spending money on it. I don't want a second book with the editing quality of Data Trails and wouldN't buy such a book (i bought DT). Judging by the voices on this specific book in 4 different forums in two different languages, I think i'm really not the only one who was not happy with the way it was released. Being silent about the problems in the book and only praising its great cover would have helped nobody.
Catalyst wouldn't have known why it was poorly recieved and the customers would have gotten the same problems with the next book, probably resulting in reduced sales.
Thanks to a lot of pretty loud voices however, the more recent books DID have a usefull table of content and DID have Chapter names that actually gave you informations about what you can find there.
Tthere is still a lot that could and should be improved. But the overall quality DID go up and it maybe/probably/hopefully/most likely will continue to do so, if there is a continued exchange of information between the people who want to have a better game and those who are able to make this come true.

Something which a customer probably appreciates.
At least I do.
(My wallet certainly doesn't).
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/0012:39> by Duellist_D »

AJCarrington

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« Reply #142 on: <01-12-16/0646:11> »
@Duellist_D - do you think that people are welcome (or not) to voice their comments and/or criticism on this forum?

adzling

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« Reply #143 on: <01-12-16/1033:10> »
I'd like to see Catalyst write something about why they can't get their Shadowrun act together.

How come their rules supplements are stuffed with more fluff than you can shake a stick at.?
What is the rational for that vs. putting it all in a coherent campaign sourcebook?
For example CFD would have been far better served as it's own campaign sourcebook rather than strewing it's fluff across multiple rulebooks.

Why can't they get their rules to work together without constant contradictions between books?

Why can't they focus on editing the rules in the rulebooks such that they are accurate and make sense (see Rigger 5.0's incomplete rules, contradictions on rules between the written description and tables)?

Why don't they have errata out by now for the older books?

Why does their customer service suck so terribly? (see posts in the forum here and elsewhere).

These are the basics of creating and managing a PnP RPG and Catalyst seems to be able to do ok with Battletech and yet they fail so miserably with Shadowrun.

Answering those questions would go a long way towards shedding some light on why their products are so poor for Srun.
It might even help them internally to make themselves into a better company by asking the hard questions and getting the right people in the right positions instead of continuing to pump out more sub-standard work riddled with rules errors and horrific editing.

Backgammon

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« Reply #144 on: <01-12-16/1043:37> »
And people wonder why the freelancers are becoming more and more rare here.

3 years ago, you couldn't open a single thread without a freelancer commenting on it. Be it funny, informative, sharing an idea, or just chewing the shit.

Now, you can't find a freelancer to save your life!



Well, after reading 9 pages of "YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!", I know why they are so rare here now.


And I have to admit, if I was a freelancer, i'd give many of you here the double finger salute, and not ever come back! Heck I'd be sorely tempted to NOT write anything again for SR as you're all just a bunch of whiny spoiled little crybabies and have no appreciation for time and effort I put in....


Be DAMN thankful that the freelancers have heart and soul for SR. If it wasn't for them, you'd have nothing at all.

So, I think I'd like to elaborate a little here.

In general, this is basically absolutely true. At least for myself personally, and I would suspect for other freelancers in general. I'm going to speak in terms of "I" here, but I think this is porbably true for most of us freelancers.

The problem is that, for a reason I'm still trying to figure out and in ways I'm still trying to deal with, I am very emotionally attached to my writing work. I actually have in general very high EQ (it is necessary for my day job) and can keep my cool in many complicated situations. But when it comes to my writing work, I have trouble. I have said things I regret in defence of my work. Every time I lose my cool, I feel stupid and I believe it reflect badly on CGL.

Why do I lose my cool so much? Like I said I still need to explore this within myself, but basically it stems from the fact fans typically present opinions as facts. Further, no matter what you say, they rarely change opinions or factor new information. So, it's frustrating. We COULD explain things, but few are actually there to listen. They are there to vent. Further, most fans do not understand at all the reality of the writing process. I wouldn't expect them to know that, of course, but again, few are interested in knowing that. If we explain it, we're "making excuses".

When something we worked on is released, we get very excited. We're proud of what we created. We put thought into it and want to see if fans can feedback on what we perceive to be great ideas. We would love to see fans discuss how something is exciting and how they plan on using it - hopefully in ways we hadn't though of - thus creating an awesome creative circle. We feed something in, fans evolve it, we pick it back up and feed it back as new content, etc. That's kind of what we dream and keep hoping will happen.

And, it does sometimes, by the way. Often it does, even.

But the thing is, fans with "positive" things to say aren't typically going to be very vocal. After all, if you agree with something, there typically isn't much more ink to spill than that.

So what we get is far more vocalization about negative feedback. And so, circle back to my early comments about how people that present negative feedback do so very badly.

So at the end of the day, for me, it unfortunately comes down pretty simply: If I interact with the fans (specifically about my work, as a freelancer), I will invariably be confronted by vehement negative criticism. I am going to be powerless to address that criticism, because posters aren't looking for a rational conversation. That will frustrate me. I will say things I will wish I hadn't.

Conclusion: I must not post, because I don't trust myself to control myself sufficiently when the time comes.

 Now, for those that aren't in the habit of posting negative feedback and are worried about this, some caveats:
1. No freelancer is under the impression that the vocal angry fans are the majority. The vocal angry fans ARE under the impression they are, but we're not. So don't think our lives and work are driven by that feedback and we're all going to quit
2. While it's hard for us to do so, and it's hard because the ones giving the feedback MAKE it hard, we do take note of (some of) the criticism. So it's not like we're not hearing some of the problems brought up. We just have a bigger picture and can put feedback into context and separate the wheat from the chaff as it were.
3. At a certain point, I understand human nature. I understand WHY some people act the way they do on the internet. To ask or expect anything else is kind of the same as wishing for world peace. You have to be realistic in your expectations.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Doesn't really change the current of conversation, but I saw some, err, concern for us freelancers, so just wanted to add some of my thoughts to the mix.
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odd

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« Reply #145 on: <01-12-16/1048:30> »
How come their rules supplements are stuffed with more fluff than you can shake a stick at.?
What is the rational for that vs. putting it all in a coherent campaign sourcebook?
For example CFD would have been far better served as it's own campaign sourcebook rather than strewing it's fluff across multiple rulebooks.

I'd guess part of this is them trying stuff, which I like them doing, but with all experiments that means sometimes it won't end well.

For what it's worth, the editting doesn't bother me as much as most folks cause I'm not the greatest writer and therefore miss a lot of the minor stuff completely.  I only really want errata to come out more often.  I also, I really liked how Catalyst updated Rigger 5.0 within a few days with things folks noticed/wanted and how involved Wak (sp) was with getting updates/fixes at least taken down.

adzling

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« Reply #146 on: <01-12-16/1055:50> »
Wak's awesome.
He's highly involved in trying to get things fixed.
Wak and AJ are credits to this forum and Catalyst.
I've seen other freelancers post on here with interesting insights and clarifications (Critias & Patrick Goodman are good examples imho but there are plenty others too).

I want to know, how can Catalyst have released Rigger 5.0 with so many errors that would have been obvious if an editor had just skimmed the book (specifically, although not limited to, the variances between stats in tables and stats in descriptions)?

This points to a broken process and/ or lack of editing oversight.

How does something like this happen?

Answering this question (without excuses) would go a long way towards Catalyst devising a solution to fix their problem.
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/1105:59> by adzling »

odd

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« Reply #147 on: <01-12-16/1100:50> »
I want to know, how can Catalyst have released Rigger 5.0 with so many errors that would have been obvious if an editor had just skimmed the book (specifically, although not limited to, the variances between stats in tables and stats in descriptions)?

Having compared lots of charts and numbers to try and double check stuff, I know that it's really easy to miss things like this.  The charts just being off rows should be easier to catch, but things happen.  What % of correctness are you looking for?  100% is impossible.  95% is really hard to do, but should be doable imo and I think they do about that.  As long as they correct these misses quickly (on forums) and update them officially (in errata or actually editting the pdf) I have no issues with mistakes.

adzling

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« Reply #148 on: <01-12-16/1104:53> »
I don't expect 100%, no one does.

But just take a minute to read the Rigger 5.0 thread, or the Data Trails thread, or any other errata thread frankly and you'll discover these books are plagued with easily spottable editing fails.

Just checking the text in the fluff descriptions vs. the tables would take like an hour or two and immediately expose those errors, so did no one proof the rules?

Quickly edited PDFs would completely resolve this.
Unfortunately Catalyst seems unable to do this for reasons.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #149 on: <01-12-16/1105:35> »
How come their rules supplements are stuffed with more fluff than you can shake a stick at.?
What is the rational for that vs. putting it all in a coherent campaign sourcebook?

They've given rationale that they won't do the separate "fluff" books because they're worried they won't sell. So, unfortunately, it seems like we're going to have to continue dealing with "fluff" overload, since the general atmosphere of vocal complainers reinforces any 'won't sell' viewpoint.

Why does their customer service suck so terribly? (see posts in the forum here and elsewhere).

Honestly, when someone comes in voicing complaints about 'poor customer service', my first thought is generally thinking "What the heck did you say to them?" about the one complaining. Customer service people are human beings as well, but many customers consider them to be machines there only to be a sounding board for their vitriol.
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