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Next mega to fall

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #30 on: <04-02-15/0010:20> »
Honestly, I'd love to see blood in the water and make one of the 'hell, no, it won't go' hit the fan - those three really being Ares, Aztechnology, and Saeder-Krupp.  My ideal scenario (as it were) would be something along these lines ...

Horizon, having screwed up against Aztechnology, tries to get in bed with Ares.  The Insect Overlords over at Knight's House get into it with the Horizon Alien Group Mind-Meld and, because they've both got a hate-on for Aztechnology, wind up a) pissing off AZT but b) allow themselves to become financially vunlerable.  Though they try to use each other as white knights when subsidiaries and departments come under attack (because blood in the water means feeding frenzy by everyone, not just Aztechnology), there's too much pressure from too many directions.

Results:
  • Both Horizon and Ares collapse; the Big 10 are back to the Big 8.
  • Yamatetsu Evo manages to snap up the correct corporate skeleton, seizing Ares' permanent seat.  Despite this triumph (which is, when all is said and done, their real goal in going after the two), they are not the 'big winners' in all this.
  • No, Aztechnology isn't a big winner either.  Ideally, though they may grab some interesting slices - some big chunks of AresSpace, for example - they get several knives in their collective back as well, losing out on any number of opportunities - or even losing major data.  Just as an example, all formulae and research notes to Blue-227 might vanish - quite possibly due to coordination between certain corporate Great Dragons...
  • For my money, the big winner would (should) be NeoNET.  I can see a desperate attempt by David Gavilan Damien Knight in struggling to hold on to his company, trying to pull off another Nanosecond Buyout by sharking one of his 'hometown competitors', but getting jammed up by a combination of Celedyr, the Villiers clan, and others looking for just a picosecond's worth of vulnerability.  This time, instead of him owning a huge chunk of Ares, after 63 seconds he's lost the key Ares corporate identity to Evo and - though he's become a major stockholder in Erika (the 'E' in NeoNET) - Ares as a corporation is dead in the water.  So he saves what he can by fire-sales on some parts, bolstering core areas, and winds up as the killer third partner (so to speak) in NeoNET, resulting in a new corporate triumvirate.
  • Horizon sucks hind teat.  Actually, it gets shredded by the sharks.  The Alien Mind Meld is greased with extreme prejudice.  (I dislike Horizon almost as much as I hated CATCo.)
  • Just a thought I had - maybe certain subsidiaries of Horizon and Ares manage to spin themselves clear.  KE would be interesting as 'its own man', so to speak, especially if Soaring-Owl had cut a deal with someone to gain control of it.

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Ursus Maior

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« Reply #31 on: <04-02-15/0216:30> »
So, I'd either vote for Renraku or Aztechnology. Not sure which way I'd lean just yet.
Well, I agree with most of your list and for the same reasons. Shadowrun always changed with the real world changing, too. So maybe it's time for a corporation from Amazonia emerging from the ashes of a fallen Aztech? That would make sense an reallign SR with the real world. It would also rob SR of an iconic villain corporation and create an enormous gap. A gap that would have to be filled also geographically, since the PCC, CAS and most likely Amazonia and maybe even some Carribean states would expand into the void a calloapsing Aztech (and Aztlan?) would leave.

Renraku is diffrent though. They used to be the number 1 AI corporation and data systems managment megacorp. I don't know about data system managment in 2075, but to me it seems other corporations do that very succesfull these days (e.g NeoNet). The AI part however is firmly out of Renraku's hands now and that leaves the corporation with hardly any profile. I don't think they should vanish completely, but a downgrade seems no unlikely. The heyday of Japanese corporations is over anyway. Shiawase is still the classic zaibatsu and MCT is, too (with that Yakuza angle), but Yamatetsu has left Japan for good and rebranded itself for some time now. And Japan has lost much of its power on a national level, so again the SR-setting follows revelopments of the real world since the inception of the game. Again, a corporation from South America, India or even another one from North America would make perfect sense. The two remaining Japanese corporations would still represent that part of SR-culture quite well. Though a true revival of the samurai ethos as back in the 1990s would be great to see. I don't know where the Permanent Seven seat would go though. Possibly a buy-out by Horizon, since they seem to be the big AI-guys now.

Ares also seems a likely candidate to me. Internal strife and bug spirits are a huge problem for any corporation. I also think however, that for a predominantly North American setting (from a real world point of view; that's simply where many players live and the authors, too) having two AAA corporations come from the UCAS might be too much. The UCAS are supposed to be weak and SR is supposed to play in Seattle. But with Boston, Detroit and New York being hotbeds of AAA-politics it seems less and less logical why Seattle should be such an important city. Especially now, since Los Angeles has its own AAA. So, why not diversify the setting even more and put one AAA to the CAS; or maybe have a CAS megacorporation buy-out one of the Permanent Seven? Like Ares. Ares Space is sitting in Houston anyway and if a renegade Ares exec wants to screw Damien Knight and teams up with Reality Inc. (owning Eagle Security), plus Lone Star plus Cavalier Arms, they could buy-out the Permanent Seven seat of former Ares Industries. That would still leave Ares Macrotechnologies a huge corporation, but without its space assets and its AAA rating, it would be basically be KE plus Ares Arms plus Ares Global Entertainment. A weapons company linked to an end user corporation and a news/PR firm. Very scary, very villainy as well.

These would be my three choices. In fact I would absolutely not mind for Ares and Renraku to go away, but one corporation take the place of Ares for a new Big Nine. After all, an odd number makes decisions much easier on court level.
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psycho835

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« Reply #32 on: <04-02-15/0338:12> »
For what it's worth, ever since the announcement, I've been working on putting in some trapdoors to pull corps through if the day comes that they gotta go. The players will be determining which corp bite sthe dust and teh writing team'll make it happen. Most of us have someone we'd *love* to send packing and somebody we'd be all, like, "Not my baby!", but, at the end of the day?

You guys make the call.

*My* job's making sure it makes sense.

So, yeah, it can be one of the guys holding the Golden Ticket from the foundation of the Corporate Court. It could be one of the new kids. It ain't my place to decide. I just gotta make sure that it *can* happen, so, hey.

Door's open, y'all.

(The guys upstairs are willing to play hardball with the setting, if it comes to that. We got rid of *FastJack* for goodness sakes, and during the wrap-up to the Dragon Civil War, every single Great Dragon's head was on the chopping block. Nobody had a get out of jail free card, not even Lofwyr. Some would have taken an *astoundingly* good proposal to knock off, but, ultimately? Nobody's safe. We're all willing to George R.R. Martin anybody if the story calls for it. Seriously.)

Now, that said? I'm all about hearing who you'd *like* to see go down, and why. Feel free to chat. :)

Oh, man that is SO tempting.

Ok, let's see:
NeoNET would make most sense for me, given recent developments. But let's take a look at other (un)lucky contestants, shall we?

Ares would be just as good, for the same reasons as NeoNET, although personally, I really don't wanna see them go.

Azzies DO make an excellent boogeyman. Plus, what's gonna happen with all those Horror-worshipping blood mages! Were would they go? What would they do with themselves? Just think, some poor psycho-cultist, freezing under a bridge, having to scrounge for soybars... :'(

MCT would have it coming, but I think it might be hard to engineer - it's not like they got a serious beatdown recently. Besides, out-of-universe, we need them - they are the kind of megacorp people love to hate. That being said, a serious beatdown (or at least a good ol' fashioned humiliation conga) should be in order.

Finally, Renraku - they are just kind of there, doing... well, nothing. I think it's time for spring cleaning.

So, my vote is for NeoNET or Renraku. Maybe with one assimilating the other...?

BetaCAV

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« Reply #33 on: <04-02-15/0347:00> »
I'm still hoping for some more space-related source material. Surely, getting out of the Earth's biosphere doesn't free one from all the 6th World's issues, but it's going to take some effort to make the non-terrestrial part of the setting playable for the awakened.

Sadly, though, if anything goes wrong out in the black, Ares is probably going to take it in the chops -- again -- and probably in a way that isn't easy to come back from.

Who is it that has boots on Mars, though? Hmm. EVO, it seems. I'm not sure what to think will happen if they make First Contact (if they haven't already), although it would probably be better than having Ares use it as an opportunity to test their latest space weaponry, in hopes of being Earth's champions... possibly regardless of whatever EVO does.

McGuffin

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« Reply #34 on: <04-02-15/0521:48> »
I'd like to see one of the three japanese corps go down. I always considered three too much to fleshen out. From where I stand MCT would make the best candidate.
Their involvement with the Yakuza would provide the opportunity for many great scenarios to sell to us SR fans: Be it the struggle itself or the aftermath of the fall when the Yabos will be on a frenzy to get back at someone, buy into a new rising corp or taking bits off established ones to get a foothold.
Of course, Renraku took a beating for a while now, making it a viable candidate, too. But it would be rather boring, I think. And boring does not sell good! In the end that is what this is about: shake things up in a way that creates good products to sell to us.

The two corps that I don't see going down in any plausible way are Aztech and S-K. Both are too entrenched within several nations.
Aztechnology is a synonym for Aztlan, they primed the name, invented the whole rebranding and new aztech culture. Wherever on the globe they suffer a loss, they could just squeeze out of the nation and come back swinging. Even a corporate mandate won't change the fact. There is no political opposition, no alternative in Aztlan. Look at modern attempts to overthrow governments. And Aztlan is not a small country, thanks to Aztech ressources its basically a superpower.
In a way, a combined corporate effort against Aztech would make them even more dangerous and stronger: They would just give up any pretense of a divide between Aztech the corporate entity and Aztlan the independent nation. And a superpower backed into a corner is a dangerous creature.
Since the Council is ruled by need of (relative) global stability to create profits, they would not risk such a scenario in any way.

Similar reasons are true for S-K. They haven't brain-washed Europe like the Azzies did, but S-K simply has too much investment and political money spend for too long.
Threatening Lofwyr's corp would mean he might throw half (and more) of Europe into the worst crisis the continent has ever seen.
That danger itself - however willing the dragon might be - would make every politician flinch and bend over.
So even if the Corporate Council should magically - out of thin air - decide to oust S-K, they would just show them the finger and continue the same way. People don't need a "corporate council approved" sigil on their products. But they do need jobs and stability.
This is the beauty of S-K's master: He has slowly sunk his claws into the continent and ensured that his power base will not change.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #35 on: <04-02-15/0531:11> »
Three?  Try five.  Out of eight.
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McGuffin

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« Reply #36 on: <04-02-15/0537:32> »
Three?  Try five.  Out of eight.

Which ones do you refer to?
Renraku, Shiawase and Mitsuhama, those three Japanocorps I know.


Wakshaani

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« Reply #37 on: <04-02-15/0628:15> »
Three?  Try five.  Out of eight.

Which ones do you refer to?
Renraku, Shiawase and Mitsuhama, those three Japanocorps I know.

In the Days of Olde, there was the Big EIght, which consisted of:

Ares Macrotechnology (UCAS)
Aztechnology (Aztlan)
Saeder-Krupp (Germany)

And then five, count 'em five, JapanaCorps:

Mitsuhama Computer Technologies
Renraku
Shiawase
Fuchi
Yamatetsu

Fuchi died, and its assets were split between North America --> Novatech (Richard Villers), Europe -->  Shiawase (Korin Yamana), and Asia ---> Renraku (Shikei Nakatomi)
Yamatetsu jumped to Russia and changed shape into Evo.

But when five of teh Big Eight were Japanese, the influence was ENORMOUS.

The Big Ten having only *three* Japanacorps broke their stranglehold on culture that they had from around 2030 until 2060, with the big Earthquakes from Haley's Comet just screwing them over hugely in '61. It took them over a decade to dig out, but they're starting a big comeback now. Renraku's facelift seems to have mostly gone unnoticed, but that's kinda how they play it now, so, it's all good.

Villers had to give up power by doing an IPO for Novatech to save it, turning into NeoNET (which he hates), Yamana tried to revolutionize SHiawase but got outed in a power struggle when the corporation re-aligned under a new CEO and Chairman of teh Board (Shiawase is now the most unified that it's been since the ate 40's!), and Renraku's CEO is nothing more than CHairman of teh Board Nakatomi's puppet.

They're all doing *something*, but it's not easy to see what at times.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #38 on: <04-02-15/0745:08> »
And in any case, I don't feel that 'there isn't enough to fill out three Japanacorps'.  All three of them essentially represent something different, a core difference, in Japanese culture - which still has a pretty heavy influence on the genre.  Shiawase represents its history, tradition, the core cultural 'Japanese identity' and the purity of it; they are the stolid samurai-and-emperor traditionalists.  Renraku represents the ultra-accelerated future - a future within which the Japanese people do not lose their cultural identity; they are the cybersamurai, the ultra-robot jocks, the computer cowboys.  MCT represents the uncertain and shifting struggle of the (nominally) lower-caste sorts, the criminals, the middle-class, the peasant trying to get by without getting squashed while also playing a trick on 'the Man'.

While other corporations represent such things as well - NeoNET represents a hyperaccelerated tech curve, Aztechnology a brash in-your-face cultural identity, Evo a 'look how the future can change us' - Shadowrun began with a huge Japanese influence, and it will always have a big chunk of that there - or at least should.  Who knows, MCT could find it needs to expand and dominate the Indian sub-continent, and it'll become Maharaja Consumer Technologies ...
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McGuffin

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« Reply #39 on: <04-02-15/1236:20> »
@ Wakshaani:
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I was aware about the earlier corps coming from Japan (playing SR since 2nd edition), but did not know about all the background.

@ Wyrm Ouroboros
I respect your opinion, yet still I disagree.
There is a term called "japanocorp" to show there are many AAAs coming from Japan. The ideals you attributed to the corps are nice, but most likely irrelevant on a global scale.
And I argue not from an ingame perspective, but from a player's.
They could also easily be adopted by the remaining two corporations if one would fall. It could also be a good opportunity to revitalise a stronger japanese influence on other corporations, because all AAAs would hurry to eat up the juciy pieces of a dying Mega.

Thats why I think the setting can afford to lose one of the three japanese corps. It might even be better off with some change and fresh wind coming from Japan.

And let's not forget that a "fall" does not necessarily mean the essence of the corp would vanish. It could also just imply a transformation like Fuchi->Novatech->NeoNet did.


Nath

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« Reply #40 on: <04-02-15/1756:38> »
In fact I would absolutely not mind for Ares and Renraku to go away, but one corporation take the place of Ares for a new Big Nine. After all, an odd number makes decisions much easier on court level.
As far as the books went so far, there are no situation where the Corporate Court goes "One corp, one vote".

- Regular court decisions are taken by a college of thirteen justices. Some of the prime megacorporations have more than one justice (MCT had as much as three at some point), either because they have enough clout at the time of the election to bargain with the other, or because they were so weak at that time the other corporations considered it the less dangerous option.

- The Corporate Court Crisis Coordination Committee ("C5") features six justices rotating among the thirteen).

- The justice election itself is described has having a "complex weighted vote system," where each of the prime megacorporations gets a number of vote based on obscure formulas that account for assets, revenues, and whatever. According to the short story at the beginning of Blood in the Boardroom, the votes are also split between a number of representatives (the plot being about Lofwyr asking Jean-Claude Priault to publicly opposes the election of Wuxing candidate, while ordering several of S-K other representatives to vote for it nonetheless).

And in any case, I don't feel that 'there isn't enough to fill out three Japanacorps'.  All three of them essentially represent something different, a core difference, in Japanese culture - which still has a pretty heavy influence on the genre.  Shiawase represents its history, tradition, the core cultural 'Japanese identity' and the purity of it; they are the stolid samurai-and-emperor traditionalists.  Renraku represents the ultra-accelerated future - a future within which the Japanese people do not lose their cultural identity; they are the cybersamurai, the ultra-robot jocks, the computer cowboys.  MCT represents the uncertain and shifting struggle of the (nominally) lower-caste sorts, the criminals, the middle-class, the peasant trying to get by without getting squashed while also playing a trick on 'the Man'.

Shiawase has its ties in traditional medieval Japan. It's more than the Shiawase family. It is the Shiawase clan. They take care of the elderly ("future care beyond what a typical corporate wage slave normally expects" was the original description of the corporation in Seattle Sourcebook), worships kami and ancestors ghosts.
As its core, Shiawase is a rural corporation, with major investments in agriculture and power plants. Although by no mean a small city, the headquarters' location in Osaka, instead of the capital Tokyo (or the former imperial capital Kyoto), can be thought off as a tribute to this "provincial" identity.

MCT is, as every one knows, related to the Yakuza. Which means much more than just some dirty money. Just as everything in Japan, Yakuza occupy a well-defined social position: their business is necessary. When Shiawase is saying "the family needs you", MCT is saying "the society needs us".  Yakuza origins goes back to peddlers and dockers. That is, people on the roads and in the ports, who were outsiders to that rural society of clans that Shiawase represents, and came to prominence later in the Meiji era, in the 19th and early 20th century. Unlike Shiawase or Renraku, MCT does not maintain any samurai-themed units - the closest they have a samurai-styled drones, which is in itself telling of how much consideration they give to the concept (also, when I play with people savvy enough on Japanese culture, I always give MCT and Yakuza henchmen only wakizashi and no katana, which was strictly a samurai weapon).

Renraku Computer Systems had been at some point depicted not as a Japanese corporation, but rather as a corporation owned by Japanese shareholders, which is slightly different. Renraku is about Japanese money taking over the world, rather than Japanese culture. It originally was an European corporation, Keruba International, that was taken over by Japanese investors in 2029, because that's where the money was in 2029, and they relocated the headquarters and established R&D centers in Chiba (again, not Tokyo) because that was where the SOTA was being developed by other corps in the 2030ies (because it is a requirement of the cyberpunk genre).
Renraku Asia did become the main division by 2040, while the European division was slowly falling apart because of internal corruption. It took almost a decade for the Japanese management to realize and deal with the practices the European managers were carrying out (which they root out for a part by simply selling the most corrupt subsidiaries). But by 2050, it was Renraku Americas who was taking the lead (headed by one Sherman Huang, not even a Japanese). And by 2057, the head of Renraku network security and his best engineers were still Eastern European hackers, as mentioned in Black Madonna.

Sure, Renraku does have the Red Samurai. They were originally a ceremonial unit with shiny armors and SOTA weapons and no actual training to use it (not exactly a tribute to the Bushido - I'm sure they did even know how to write poetry). They slowly moved into being one of the most elite units in the setting, but with strict rules on race and ethnicity. They are actually completely cut off from, like, 90% of Renraku. Highly-skilled guards from European, American or even Indian or Chinese division are never going to join the Red Sams (the Seattle Sourcebook mentions most of the arcology guards are actually trained in the Renraku Guard Academy in Seoul). The Red Samurais may be a symbol (especially to the Shadowrunners who encounter them) but they are the opposite of what makes a corporate culture - from a Renraku employee's point of view, the Red Sams belong to the management, not the corporation as a whole.

Then there was Fuchi Industrial Electronics (the alliance with the West), Yamatetsu (the colonization of Asia, more specifically the Philippines and Eastern Russia, wavering between cooperation and domination), Yakashima (buy-restructure-sell-repeat...), Monobe (buy whatever company is for sale anywhere in the world), the Pacific Rim Bank & Financial Services Corporation (the godfather of the Japanacorps: why ask for AAA rating when there are several of them beholden to you ?)... Which still leave Daiatsu, Komatsu, Pacific Rim Communications, Sony and Yokogawa to flesh out beyond the little that was put in Shadows of Asia.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #41 on: <04-03-15/0331:40> »
Renraku's doing a lot to shed the *image* of a Japanese company while still keeping the *structure* of one. Their new focus on teh service industry, for instance, uses local people for the 'footsoldiers' who report to local-ish managers who, in turn, report to Asian higher-ups. Thus, they companies *look* local but aren't. They're pitching a lifestyle now, and it's a self-supporting loop.

For example, when you get up in the morning, you hear news from the Renraku clock radio (Made by some subsidiary), which is set to a Renraku channel (With generic WKIZ-type call letters), hop into your Renraku car (Branded something else), use GridGuide (tm) (Now owned by Renraku) to go to work. Afterwards, you swing by a Renraku-owned place for a haircut, read some Renraku magazines that talk about Renraku products and gossip about stars who perform in Renraku media, and so on.

They quietly move in and take over your life, one little piece at a time, while using their massive database to know what you want before you want it. They then provide it, and have a smiling face offer it to you while thanking you for your business.

They also have a new security company entering the world stage (Mor eon that later!), and, in generl, are quite happy to let other Megacorps stand out there and get bad media attention while they quietly move into one area after another. They're also playing a dangerous game, switching between MCT and Shiawase as allies, playing both of the more powerful corps against one another while helping both (But mainly themselves). In short, they're the masters of the puppet show, keeping your eyes over HERE while they actually do stuff over THERE.

If I get to do a certain thing with Shiawase dow the road, this'll be even more clear in the future.

BetaCAV

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« Reply #42 on: <04-03-15/0445:08> »
I'm still hoping for some more space-related source material. Surely, getting out of the Earth's biosphere doesn't free one from all the 6th World's issues, but it's going to take some effort to make the non-terrestrial part of the setting playable for the awakened.
One thought on this, as an aside, is that it could be accomplished by stipulating that there IS mana beyond Earth's reach, but that it requires alignment to it to make use of (or even perceive), and that the interactions between terrestrial mana and non-terrestrial mana (perhaps) play some part in the ebbs, voids, warps and other phenomena mentioned in Street Grimoire.

Ursus Maior

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« Reply #43 on: <04-03-15/0619:24> »
Isn't mana tied to the or in fact any life? Then there could be life forming on diffrent planets, when sufficient amounts of life are present.
Liber et infractus

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #44 on: <04-03-15/0908:27> »
I think mana requires a certain saturation of life to exist.

 

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