[Triskavanski]

Then thats not rolled. The point of rolling them is just to show how broken (as indoesnt work) the system is

[8-bit]

Then thats not rolled. The point of rolling them is just to show how broken (as indoesnt work) the system is

Ah. All right, nevermind then. Misunderstood what you were saying.

[Glyph]

Seems they wanted to restrict the cheap +1 attribute boost, that was so prevalent in the surgelings I saw.

Then wouldn't it be easier to just nerf, or even completely do away with, the quality?  It was poorly designed in SR4, because it was blatantly superior to exceptional Attribute.  First, because it didn't just raise the maximum, but actually raised the Attribute, for the same cost.  Secondly, because it wasn't actually the same cost after all.  Gettiing SURGE II meant you got it for 10 BP instead of 20, although technically it was a 20-point quality balanced out by 10 points' worth of negative qualities.  Time to give yourself some cool anime-style crayola hair and funky eyes.  Or if you don't even want to look like a changeling, get a moderate allergy to silver, or nano-intolerance and weak immune system.  Or get astral hazing, one of the other overpowered options, as your 10-pointer "flaw".

So yeah, the good thing is that glamour and the aforementioned astral hazing both got powered down, and while the metagenetic improvement is still blatantly superior, it still gets nerfed overall because it is part of a less-than-optimal package deal.  In SR4, 15 points got you 30 points of positives balanced out by 15 points of negatives.  But they raised it to 30 and doubled the amount of flaws.  You are essentially paying 30 points to be a changeling, points that come out of your limited supply of starting Karma (or, if you are using Point Buy, your limited supply of Karma, period).  For the cost of a mystic adept getting 6 power points, you get to be a freak - one with lots of quantifiable disadvantages, on top of being very distinctive in a vocation where that is a big disadvantage.

Personally, I don't like the random options.  Both because they confuse the original intent of the I, II, and III designations, originally denoting the level of severity of the SURGE, and because I don't believe random rolls have any place in character creation.  I think SURGE III got a bit over-nerfed, too.  Sometimes I think they worry a bit too much about "fixing" everything that was a good deal in SR4, and wind up with options that are so sub-optimal that no one takes them.

[Triskavanski]

What did astral Hazing do?

[8-bit]

What did astral Hazing do?

A character with this quality has expressed metagenes that somehow catalyse and feed on the character’s darker emotions and negative feelings, disturbing the character’s aura and any ambient mana in her vicinity. For reasons not yet understood, the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right and taints astral space around her wherever she goes; a generator of tainted astral background count (similar to a cyberzombie).

This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character. Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened. If she remains in one place for long, the background count expands by one meter in every direction every two or three hours (at the gamemaster’s discretion).

Only difference in SR5 is that it's a Rating 3 background count, instead of 4. Still a fairly large difference. Anyway, it's not really a negative quality, because it makes you much more resilient to enemy mages.

[SpellBinder]

Don't forget that BGC works differently now.  What was a -4 to your Magic Attribute with Astral Hazing is now merely a -3 DP penalty.  When you used to be effectively Magic 2 when you were Magic 6, now you're effectively Magic 6 with -3 to your Spellcasting & such.

[Glyph]

I did some random rolling to see what it is like.  Even with my assumptions (It is not explicitly stated, but I presume if you roll something that would take your positive qualities over 30, or your negative qualities to more than your positive ones (since even SURGE I has you rolling all of your positive qualities first, and picking a stopping point), you re-roll until you get one that "fits"), it was still frustrating, mainly when I got to the negative qualities  The problem is that so many of them are incompatible with each other, or with a positive quality you may have gained.  Scales are incompatible with striking skin pigmentation and feathers, feathers are also incompatible with mood hair and unusual hair (which are incompatible with each other), third eye is incompatible with cyclopean eye... you get the idea.  The tables are a bit wonky, too.  The 3 to 5 karma table (negative) doesn't have an entry for # 12, and the 6 to 15 karma table (negative) is labeled 3 to 5 karma.

[PJ]

What about SURGE like this:

SURGE (1-15 Karma, positive or negative quality)

If chosen as a positive quality, the player builds a changeling, subject to the normal rules (30 max, within 1 point).  Karma cost is half the higher of positive or negative qualities, rounded down.

If chosen as a negative quality, the player chooses how much karma gained and then the GM builds the changeling, as above.

[Reaver]

Yep, But Impaired Attribute knocks off 2 from maximum natural and augmented.


And I wouldn't have really any problem with the mutagentic qualities just not really translating from the previous edition into this one, so they ditched them. The problem comes from the fact that the ones I mentioned do exist in 5th. But well they didn't fit in their little dice roll charts, so they didn't put them in as mutagentic qualities.

(Run faster page 120)

"For example, a human character would have one attribute with a natural maximum of 4 rather than the usual 6. The quality also decreases the augmented maximum by the appropriate amount..."

So if you took this quality on Strength as a human:

Instead of max: 6 (10)

you would be max: 4 (


All it is trying to tell you is that if you take the quality you lose 2 points off what the stat can be and potentially be. Basically is it trying to remind you that you lost the 2 points to the augmented cap as well for that attribute, due to the ability, not on top of it. (So the stat could not be miss read as 4 (10) for a human strength)

[Triskavanski]

Holy crap man. I'm stupid. Why? No its not because I think that rolling for changeling abilities is the greatest thing ever, but the fact it totally forgot when you're rolling 3d6, its not the same as rolling 1d18. 3d6 create a bell curve!



That chart there, I'm not entirely sure how accurate it is to the percent, but its true that 3 and 18 have the worst possible changes in the game for you to get. Assuming its accurate, if you roll the dice, there is a VERY high probility if you get to the 13-20 karma mutagentic qualities table, you will get improved logic.

There is a dismally low chance for you to ever get the 3 or 18 point abilities. because only one dice roll will ever make it.

[SpellBinder]

1d16, since there's 16 results for 3 to 18.  But no matter, there's an alternative out there in the internet that's been out for many, many years now.

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm

Granted it's mainly intended for the standard polyhedral set, but there's that bottom line that you can roll 1d-whatever.  1d7?  Sure.  13d13?  You bet.  Just set it to roll 1d16+2 instead of rolling 3d6 and you'll get yourself a linear result ranging from 3 to 18 that's an even 6.25% chance for each and every option.  Or even 1d21+3 instead of 4d6 for that one table that calls for 4 dice.

[Triskavanski]

Right 16.

Oh and I find it hilarious with things like the Freaks additive that some of the qualities get. Like how you can have cat eyes bioware or cat eyes because your a changeling.

Somehow everyone knows how to tell the difference between these two. And even people who might actually be totally into it.. (Like say.. Oh Other changelings or some sort of group that loves changelings or animal peoples) you still totally take all those negative modifiers.

It gets even funnier if you're like an 8 foot tall troll changeling with large tusks, an elephant trunk, four arms, quad wielding chainsaws, with a vestigial tail, third eye Satyr elgs and scent glands, covered in the blood of the innocent..

And he has absolutly no chance RAW to really roll an intimidate check to the point that even Scoobydoo isn't afraid of him. Seriously, you're taking a =7~8 to intimidate checks with a changeling like that. and have -2 to your limit. You don't stand a snowballs chance in hell with ever making a social roll.

And honestly, thats kinda how its going to be for most changeling class III, since like, those are suppose to be the beastmen changelings.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... although typically 'social roll' situations are those that produce a positive 'they like you more' effect - and when you take a negative on those, you usually get a bonus to the opposite, 'scare the crap out of them' effect.

[Triskavanski]

By raw though, that doesn't happen here.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Technically yes, though - as I've said before - there is such a thing as reading RAW too strictly.  This ain't HERO system.