[ZeldaBravo]

Considering you can't go over a Rating 6 Bow at Character Creation anyway

We have Restricted Gear now!

[8-bit]

Considering you can't go over a Rating 6 Bow at Character Creation anyway

We have Restricted Gear now!

Oh boy, 10 Karma to get a Bow that will deal like 2 more Damage, when half of my arrows don't use the Bow's damage, and the other half are still enough to kill people. Unless you're going from a rating 6 Bow to a Rating 10 Bow, I don't honestly see the point. Stick-n-Shock isn't affected by it. Incendiary isn't either. And you can get a Rating 10 Bow for a measly 1,000 nuyen right after the game starts.

Not trying to be rude or anything, but there are better things to spend Restricted Gear on.

[ZeldaBravo]

Yeah I know, but it is fun anyway.

[UnLimiTeD]

Uhm, Bows are 'Rating' Availability?  You should be able to get any rating just fine....
Or when was that changed?

[Aethelwulf1972]

am I missing something or do muscle toner and muscle augmentation stack because they boost different attributes?

[Herr Brackhaus]

Uhm, Bows are 'Rating' Availability?  You should be able to get any rating just fine....
Or when was that changed?

Page 94.
"at normal character creation, characters are restricted to a maximum Availability rating of 12 and a device rating of 6."

[UnLimiTeD]

Bows don't have a device rating, though. They just have a rating.
The device rating is only really described in relation to electronic devices, while bows are universally non-wireless.
The Headhunter in the example characters section does have a rating 8 bow.
The description of the ratings for non-VR equipment doesn't go above 6, either, so one has to assume that a rating 10 bow eats up the budget of a medium sized country to develop? I think not.

Also, if Bows would be restricted by that rule (which I won't believe until the respective author comes in and tells me personally), then the Restricted Gear quality wouldn't change that a bit.

@Aethel yes. You don't have to choose. You just have to pay.

[8-bit]

Bows don't have a device rating, though. They just have a rating.
The device rating is only really described in relation to electronic devices, while bows are universally non-wireless.
The Headhunter in the example characters section does have a rating 8 bow.
The description of the ratings for non-VR equipment doesn't go above 6, either, so one has to assume that a rating 10 bow eats up the budget of a medium sized country to develop? I think not.

Also, if Bows would be restricted by that rule (which I won't believe until the respective author comes in and tells me personally), then the Restricted Gear quality wouldn't change that a bit.

@Aethel yes. You don't have to choose. You just have to pay.

Bows have been stated, multiple times by developers, that Rating = Device Rating. Meaning, you can only go as high as Rating 6 at Character Creation.

That description table is a generic handwave setup. I doubt that a Deltaware Datajack takes up the budget of a small-medium sized country either.

I can search for some quotes and citations if you want.

am I missing something or do muscle toner and muscle augmentation stack because they boost different attributes?

Yes, they stack. It's comparable to Muscle Replacement, just different Essence and Nuyen Costs.

[ScytheKnight]

Eurgh, no they do NOT stack... if you read the descriptions each of the three clearly state that they are incompatible with any other muscle augmentation.

[8-bit]

Eurgh, no they do NOT stack... if you read the descriptions each of the three clearly state that they are incompatible with any other muscle augmentation.

Incorrect. Muscle Replacement states it is incompatible with Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation. Muscle Toner states that it is incompatible with Muscle Replacement. Muscle Augmentation states that it is incompatible with Muscle Replacement. Neither Muscle Toner or Muscle Augmentation say they do not stack with each other, and that was what was being asked.

[SichoPhiend]

Eurgh, no they do NOT stack... if you read the descriptions each of the three clearly state that they are incompatible with any other muscle augmentation.

I believe he asked if they stack with each other, which they do.  Each individual description clearly states that they do not stack with something that provides the same bonus.

"Muscle augmentation adds its rating to your Strength. This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Strength, including the muscle replacements cyberware." p 459 SR5 and
"Muscle toner adds its rating to your Agility. This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Agility, including the muscle replacements cyberware." also p 459 SR5 emphasis mine.

As neither Muscle toner or augmentation provide a bonus to the same attribute, they are compatible with each other.  Neither are compatible with Muscle replacement, Suprathyroid Gland or Adrenal Pump.

-edit-
ACK! Ninja'd by 8-bit

[Aethelwulf1972]

so if I have a strength of 5, and get muscle augmentation 3 at character generation, would I have to pay 30 or 45 karma to max out my natural str?

[jim1701]

As I read it it's 30 karma which is an improvement over 4th edition which would have been 45. 

[8-bit]

30 Karma. You pay to raise the normal Attribute, not the Augmented one.

And jim1701 beat me to it.

[Lucean]

I think this increase in cost to raise it was only mentioned for adepts with Improved Physical Attribute. I'm glad that this form of double punishment is gone (more karma to raise the natural attribute and more PP, if the attribute would become higher than natural max).