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Run Faster Errata

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« Reply #135 on: <09-26-16/1743:27> »
I personally have no problem with there being a 'snowflake tax' on the generation of characters with alternate metatypes.

Keeps the "D'rizzt Effect" down , and helps balance out the population perspective.

Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.

In many cases we are talking a fraction of a percentage of the world's population, there should be a 'tax' on that regardless of the mechanical effects, because you can't rely on the social aspects to have any real baring.... (and we see this in the character creation threads ALL the time....)
« Last Edit: <09-27-16/0458:26> by Reaver »
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« Reply #136 on: <09-26-16/1840:53> »
To be fair what other choice would a mage have? A corp job? Pssshhh :p

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #137 on: <09-26-16/2203:21> »
SO, A few thoughts:

1) Yeah, special snowflake taxes are fine.  5th ed does a good job of making Humans kinda better for the cost than other metatypes, so you see more humans than you do everyone else.  That's good.

2) That said, shadowrunner populations do not need to reflect the general population.  It doesn't strike me as weird you see a lot of mage or troll characters, for instance. Probably a greater percentage of trolls are employed as shadowrunners than humans are.  Strength 10 doesn't really help you at a desk job.

3)  Lot of FUD going around about dual natured.  It is pretty much literally astral perception that you can't turn off.  The lack of the -2 penalty (presumably because you're used to it) is nice.  It's worth noting that astral perception is a power that adepts pay 1 PP for, which is significant.  But of course, you can't turn it off, which is also a big deal. (there are other ways to go through astral barriers btw, than just destroying them, though it takes some skill) It is my sense of it that it is generally pretty neutral as a power, neither good nor bad. 

4) Regeneration is a big deal, folks. It seems like generally, balanced campaigns didn't allow characters with regeneration, and shapeshifters were verboten.  It seems like there was a concerted effort to make it harder for Infected to take (though 12 karma is nowhere near expensive enough).  Leaving it off shifters seemed really weird, though, and no, I don't think it's balanced by the silver vulnerability.  (and the cost needs to increased for infected)

Novocrane

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« Reply #138 on: <09-26-16/2222:51> »
Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.
The percentage of the total population doesn't particularly matter to me; it's the percentage of the shadowrunning community and peripheral communities that actually mean something. 140 million might sound like a vanishingly small amount, worldwide, but if most of those are runners, corpsec, talismongers, etc, then it doesn't matter that wageslaves worldwide are almost never awakened powerhouses. Ditto that for everything else.

Well, my perspective is that they shouldn't have to feel anemic about what they bought.  The price of power shouldn't just be flat for everything, it should be based on what you receive.
Agreed on the latter, but not the emphasis of the former.

Quote
A 'shifter should cost more than a regular metahuman, because you receive Regeneration, physical stat increases, the ability to turn into a critter (a number of those forms are amazing for certain roles/survivability), etc.  In their bailiwick, they're going to surpass vanilla mortals in what they do. The Allergy and Vulnerability basically negate the Regeneration and Uneducated helps pay off the cost, so you have to cover the rest of the Karma from there.
If Infected were able to put a paygate on regen (etc) to put them on more even starting footing, why not shifters? I get Infected have their whole "recently afflicted and still changing" thing going, but that doesn't mean a reason can't be found for shifters to not have everything.
« Last Edit: <09-26-16/2234:35> by Novocrane »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #139 on: <09-26-16/2306:52> »
If Infected were able to put a paygate on regen (etc) to put them on more even starting footing, why not shifters? I get Infected have their whole "recently afflicted and still changing" thing going, but that doesn't mean a reason can't be found for shifters to not have everything.

Problem there is that there isn't really an "(etc)" when it comes to Shifter powers. Shifters basically only get 2 powers, Shift and Regeneration. Everything else is based pretty much on the fact that since their natural form is animal and they have the innate ability to change form that they don't actually change all the way. That's why they always have tells that show their Shifter nature (Tiger's eyes, wolves extra hair, etc). Thus they retain some of their improved sensory capabilities even while shifted, but otherwise the attacks, and extra sense-based powers are all just from being an animal.

Likewise, the regeneration goes hand-in-hand with their Shift power. The list of Vampire powers is much more extensive, and at least from a perspective of how the rules have changed somewhat, the reduction in the powers they receive from the beginning is actually what makes them more of a playable option from the get-go.

Novocrane

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« Reply #140 on: <09-27-16/0025:42> »
Quote
Problem there is that there isn't really an "(etc)" when it comes to Shifter powers
(not that there has to be an etc to put a separate price on regen, or prices on scaling up to full regen, but...) Before 5e Infected, there  wasn't an etc to Infected powers, either. It was just *blat*, and "run along now". That something doesn't currently exist isn't reason enough to avoid considering change beyond the initial suggestion.

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they retain some of their improved sensory capabilities even while shifted
So do that, but don't give them everything at maximum ability to start. Even animals can improve by practice, play, and training.

If SR allowed for animal instincts they can sharpen, the ability to improve their shifting finesse / what animalistic abilities they retain while in (meta)human form, and so on - then Shifters would have the viable range of purchases Infected do now.
« Last Edit: <09-27-16/0056:41> by Novocrane »

dezmont

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« Reply #141 on: <09-27-16/0055:43> »
I personally have no problem with there being a 'snowflake tax' on the generation of characters with alternate metatypes.

Keeps the "D'rizzt Effect" down , and helps balance out the population perspective.

Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.

In many cases we are talking a fraction of a percentage of the world's population, there should be a 'tax' on that regardless of the mechanical effects, because you can rely on the social aspects to have any real baring.... (and we see this in the character creation threads ALL the time....)

Placing a mechanical barrier around content you do not want other people to freely enjoy is not even close to legitimate errata content.

If Infected were able to put a paygate on regen (etc) to put them on more even starting footing, why not shifters? I get Infected have their whole "recently afflicted and still changing" thing going, but that doesn't mean a reason can't be found for shifters to not have everything.

The idea of a paygate isn't a bad one, especially as it makes it easier to enable people currently playing shifters to not have to undergo major retacons to the character, and for individual GMs to ban the regeneration aspect of the shifter while keeping the core story of them the same. It works for vampires, soooorta works for drakes, why not shifters?

It would essentially allow people who enjoy the 'minority alien outsider looking for a home' aspect to keep doing that while allowing people who favor 4e-2e's interpretation to keep doing their thing. You could even play up the weird pseudo-spirit aspect of shifters that older fluff sorta had by giving them some spirit powers, but that may actually push them over the top.

There are a few other problems with shifters that need to be adressed. Specifically, their movement tables are very strange and don't make a lot of sense. Read as a replacement to base movement for shifters suddenly animals with a running speed of over 30 miles per hour suddenly struggle to outrace a relatively out of shape human. Read as a multiplier to the base movement speed shifters now go crazy fast, though that may fit in with the idea of the powerful unstoppable werecreature thing some people seem to enjoy.

Also, the way they purchase stats twice can lead to an extremely odd situation with special attributes. Purchasing magic twice is pretty insane for what you actually get for being a shifter, and creates a lot of major rules holes for mystic adept shifters as well as any shifter who by some miracle gets deltaware, as well as minor weirdness with foci and summoning, but is a relatively minor issue compared to the edge question. Do shifters have two edge stats and two edge pools?

As for naga reach: Literally every bite attack in the game is a reach 0 or reach 1 attack, so the idea that bites somehow make your reach negative two meters is a bit silly. Bites, knives, kicks, punches, and stungloves have reach 0 or 1 because reach doesn't represent how far from your body an attack is (after all, a troll's kicks have a reach of 2, 3 if they got claws on each feet or a spur!) so much as the area that you threaten, which makes an attack easier to make and harder to land on you without getting hit first.

Think of it this way, would you want to stand within 2 meters of a naga knowing it had to keep half its body roughly where it was? Probably not, you know its bite range extends way longer than the range of your fist, not negative 2 meters into its body. Reach represents the advantage your personal zone of control has, and while in a real fight it would be represented likely by an initiative bonus more than anything (the naga's extended zone of personal control can strike you down faster than you could ever get close enough to land your strike on any part of its body) that would be mechanically unwieldy and thus its represented as changing the difficulty of the attack. This is why the lunge is represented as a reach boost in martial arts as well. Your arm or sword doesn't actually get longer, you are just 'uncoiling' like a naga would!
« Last Edit: <09-27-16/0110:56> by dezmont »

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #142 on: <09-27-16/0107:49> »
I personally have no problem with there being a 'snowflake tax' on the generation of characters with alternate metatypes.

Keeps the "D'rizzt Effect" down , and helps balance out the population perspective.

Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.

In many cases we are talking a fraction of a percentage of the world's population, there should be a 'tax' on that regardless of the mechanical effects, because you can rely on the social aspects to have any real baring.... (and we see this in the character creation threads ALL the time....)

Placing a mechanical barrier around content you do not want other people to freely enjoy is not even close to legitimate errata content.


If you accept that some grand mistake of omission was made, and that the costs of the choice may have been decided after that omission, sure it is. 

And the "snowflake tax" isn't meant to be a "barrier" so much as a weighting .....it's not that people don't want to see these characters, they just don't to see them all the time with a frequency that strains credulity.  If every frontline character is a tiger shifter adept, and every decker an AI (because that's the best way to build X archetype), that's a problem.  And indeed, with the cost factored in you want them a little suboptimal, just to keep them appropriately rare.  So that guy who wants to make a japanese fox shifter can do it if they want to , for the flavor, and it's cool, but everyone else at the table isn't saying "I wish I'd done that".

dezmont

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« Reply #143 on: <09-27-16/0121:07> »
And the "snowflake tax" isn't meant to be a "barrier" so much as a weighting .....it's not that people don't want to see these characters, they just don't to see them all the time with a frequency that strains credulity.  If every frontline character is a tiger shifter adept, and every decker an AI (because that's the best way to build X archetype), that's a problem.  And indeed, with the cost factored in you want them a little suboptimal, just to keep them appropriately rare.  So that guy who wants to make a japanese fox shifter can do it if they want to , for the flavor, and it's cool, but everyone else at the table isn't saying "I wish I'd done that".

But that isn't even close to how good game design works, because being cool and having fun and doing something weird aren't mechanical entities. If you balance correctly for mechanical power, you wouldn't see every PC as a tiger or an AI.

You balance the mechanics and allow GMs to control their tables, because that is what the GM needs in order to make their own informed decisions. Designing around theorycraft boards isn't a good plan, people make weird stuff all the time as thought experiments, that is what was interesting. A GM needs an honest appraisal about what is worth what, and that is what the mechanics actually represent at chargen. If all things were equally powerful at what they were supposed to do, and you ended up with 3 shifters, a naga, and a changeling, that is what those players genuinely wanted to play, so the idea of 'weighting' really is just to enforce personal views onto the game. No shadowrun team ever represents a perfect cross section of the general population anyway, that just not how statistics and demographics work, due to selection bias, something already explained earlier in the thread.

In fact, theorycraft asside, we see how bad the idea of a snowflake tax is already in play, and they tend to have effects far out of proportion to their intent.. You don't see AI ever because their design in 5e is so bad that every single major shadowrun living community has banned them because they are an unplayable mess. Likewise, naga, centaur, and sasquatch are not at all possible because the gate on their cool factor is unreasonably high.

Know what we actually see a lot of? Pixies. Because they are amazingly and overwhelmingly powerful at any mental dependent role that isn't the face. Pixies are the best mages, riggers, and deckers. And if they weren't automatically awakened they would be the best techomancers. That is why people have been coming into this thread and posting memes you people understand about pixies and the need to light them on fire. Anyone from the runnerhub or shadownet is super familiar with people posting pixies because they are just a little bit better at rigging, hacking, and spellcasting. By 1 dice and are the bane of the chargen teams.

Even trolls and dwarf play numbers among both reddit communities, a totally normal metatype, are severely hurt by the fact they just harder to make than a ork, elf, or human by a little bit.

We see consistently that players deeply care about the mechanical balance of their characters along with their story. When you go into a chargen chat of one of these communities it is a constant struggle to make a troll work because it is cool but in the end people give up because its just a bit too far off the curve. Technos and especially Riggers face that problem as roles.

The mechanics of the game trump your own personal distaste for these types, and even if you wanted to make a snowflake gate all you would need to do would be to reduce their mechanical efficiency by a liiiiitle bit. Just a tensy bit. Just 1 dice to all pools is enough to push something completely over the edge. That is how immaculate this errata needs to be for these major communities to use it.
« Last Edit: <09-27-16/0126:22> by dezmont »

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« Reply #144 on: <09-27-16/0533:13> »
Have yet to see a table ban AIs yet. I HAVE seen tables where players whine they can't build their AI the way they want it - thus it's unplayable.

Nor have I seen a table ban Nagas - as long as the player isn't trying to load it up with guns and grenades that is..

it's interesting you bring up the word "balance" like its some all powerful thing in the RPG community. Really, it's not. Balance has never been at the heart of the table top experience, nor has it ever been. There are entire books that discuss this very point! In fact, TSR published a book that broke down the power curve of every class over 20 levels based on the game mechanics, and at no power were any of the classes "balanced".... The heart of every table top is "Is this enjoyable?" And admittedly, that takes a measure of balance. The balance of game mechanics, player choice, difficulty intended, and atmosphere is not something that can be boiled down into a straight X=Y=1 formula.

The last tabletop developer that thought along your line of thinking lost thousands of players, millions in revenue, and spawned a competing company that makes and arguably more popular game! (DnD VS Pathfinder. Hasbro Vs Paizo). Even development studios, with a decade in the MMORPG business spend more time patching for "Balance"  then any other issue.... Heck World of Warcaft is HOW old??? And they are stilling "Balancing" the classes!


No, "Balance" is a myth, a pipe dream. A good acid trip. "Balance" can never be achieved. Why? Because we want choices. And when we introduce different choices, those choices reflect the "balance".....

Race: 10+ choices 
Stats: 10 attributes range of numbers (Oh the Choices!!)
Magic: More Choices on Choices, with Choices!
Gear: Choices, more choices, and even yet more choices!!!

You starting to see where I am going? These are all things that are in the game, that affect that finished outcome of a character..... they matter. The fact that Purple People Eaters cost 5 more karma then Green Veggie Sprouters is of little concern after the final tally of those said choices and the effects of said choices on "balance".


But really Sir_Prometheus said it best.
" And the "snowflake tax" isn't meant to be a "barrier" so much as a weighting .....it's not that people don't want to see these characters, they just don't to see them all the time with a frequency that strains credulity. "


The simple fact that you flocks of Pixie Runners tells me that they are too cheap and should be adjusted up in Karma costs. (and IF they are packing assault rifles, the player smacked up side the head with a physics book)
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Darzil

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« Reply #145 on: <09-27-16/0915:57> »
Statswise at least, not sure I'd include Sasquatch in complains of being underpowered :

Sasquatch comparison with Troll

+1 Body Max/Min
+1 Agility Max
+1 Logic Max
+1 Int Max
+2 Cha Max

+ Dual Natured
+ Mimicry
+ Natural Weapon
+ Uneducated
- Thermographic Vision
-1 Dermal Armor
- increased Lifestyle costs
20 Karma cost (but 2 extra Edge over Troll at priority B)

Balanced out by fluff that they can't speak, but doesn't stop them being successfully as diplomats or politicians, and no idea how it affects other modes of communication (sign language, comm links etc)

dezmont

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« Reply #146 on: <09-27-16/1403:42> »
Statswise at least, not sure I'd include Sasquatch in complains of being underpowered :

The fact that they have dual natured prevents them from seeing a lot of tables. On top of that, while they have somewhat comparable stats to a troll, their charisma in no way helps them at the things they are predisposed towards and using charsima as a sasquatch for uses other than drain, spirits, and over the matrix is complicated because you are a big fuzzy monster. Finally, because they share a priority with trolls, they already are 'hard mode' because any priority above C has very serious ramifications for a character because it necessitates dropping multiple priorities down by 1 point. Dropping a D priority to E isn't generally a big deal, but dropping a C priority to D is a massive loss to a character. As A B priority metasapient a sasquatch requires you to drop 3 priorities, which means you not only get the C to D problem, but you also can't really start dropping priorities anymore and something you actually care about now has to end up near the bottom. Worse, squatches requires you to be an awakened PC for a power source both due to dual natured's downsides and the fact that a dual natured PC who burns out to 0 dies, and it is notoriously impractical to make a magical priority B metatype character. Sum to 10 helps a bit, but not that much, especially as squatches likely need to be mystic adepts to handle flying astral threats and they already are some karma in the hole.

The problem with sasquatches is that dropping dual natured from them would make them another pixie: A metasapient with just better stats than a metahuman paid for by social disadvantages that can be overcome or avoided.


Have yet to see a table ban AIs yet. I HAVE seen tables where players whine they can't build their AI the way they want it - thus it's unplayable.

I have seen many do so, more because their rules make them an unplayable mess rather than being under-powered, but in many ways the symptoms are linked to their core mechanics just being plain bad. Depth as a mechanic doesn't work as a power source and actively makes the AI worse at what they do forever with each point they obtain, but AI need depth to operate most of their abilities, which ultimately are not all that potent with rare exception. Then on top of that there is the utter lack of clarity to how the AI actually works in the matrix, the entire question on how to capture an AI is just left unanswered despite decidedly being a canon thing. AI are literally a mess of mechanics that prove how serious mechanics really are in supporting 'snowflakes' because hope and desire alone can't make it work.

it's interesting you bring up the word "balance" like its some all powerful thing in the RPG community. Really, it's not.

I have no idea what RPG communities you go to, because game balance is incredibly important in any RPG review and when discussing the game. I have never seen it not matter. There is a reason people blast Exalted or nWoD before its update for having really terrible balance in its mechanics that creates massive party disparity. People make tier lists and get sad when archtypes, not necessarily classes but entire archtypes, are no longer powerful enough to matter.

Balance has never been at the heart of the table top experience, nor has it ever been. There are entire books that discuss this very point! In fact, TSR published a book that broke down the power curve of every class over 20 levels based on the game mechanics, and at no power were any of the classes "balanced".... The heart of every table top is "Is this enjoyable?" And admittedly, that takes a measure of balance. The balance of game mechanics, player choice, difficulty intended, and atmosphere is not something that can be boiled down into a straight X=Y=1 formula.

TSR's dungeon's and dragons was a very different beast from where RPGs ended up, still having its feet firmly in wargames. Modern ideas of game design weren't exactly a thing yet, and the player experience wasn't always focused on. However, I would argue that TSR did a better job than you think, because regardless of the power of each class at any given level, at that point in history every class in D&D had very strong niche protection, especially in terms of exclusive access to entire categories of magic items which is why a class like rogue which underpreformed at a lot of levels was still always valuable simply by being the best person to hold many useful magic items. Furthermore, as a designer it is your job to think in terms of balance. A balanced RPG is inherently superior to one that isn't, all other things being equal. Saying balance outright doesn't matter is just silly.

The last tabletop developer that thought along your line of thinking lost thousands of players, millions in revenue, and spawned a competing company that makes and arguably more popular game! (DnD VS Pathfinder. Hasbro Vs Paizo). Even development studios, with a decade in the MMORPG business spend more time patching for "Balance"  then any other issue.... Heck World of Warcaft is HOW old??? And they are stilling "Balancing" the classes!

Actually the last developer to think along these lines was Montie Cook, who went out of his way to make a game with immaculate class balance and a focus on story telling  that has become a critical darling and a kickstarter success no less than 3 times over because people really appreciated the focus on making a game that was fun to play in the way people wanted to play it, after openly stating that he was an idiot for making 3.5 the way it was. 4e failed because it lacked soul. Its mechanical quality was good but there was never any threat or edge to any encounter. 4e's class design is still clearly in 5e, which is being very well received as far as I am aware.

The dissatisfaction with poor mechanics is also, frankly, why the community went out of its way to demand errata from catalyst. Because it is very obvious people care, even if you don't think they should. It is also why rules lite systems are coming into vogue right now, because in general they enforce balance by making all choices fundamentally the same and only affect the narrative of the game, something attractive to many players who are tired of having to deal with something they enjoy being arbitrarily worse to enforce an RPG system mastery concept literally recanted by the person who invented it as a terrible idea.

As for world of warcraft and mmos... yes. Balance is an eternal struggle and you never fully reach it. But you realize they are fully aware their business is dying because people are so fed up by the lack of balance remaining in the game and continued pushes of low quality content made for an assumed guaranteed audience that is rapidly going away, right? Sound familiar? WoW tried because it understood balance was important and the number one way for your game to just turn people off is to be bad as a game. RPGs have role playing, sure, and many people think the mechanics are spereate from this, though the stormwind fallacy basically disproves this idea. But it is also a game. And there is a reason that people enjoy games like Go, which despite not being perfectly balance has mechanics built in to ensure both a more even match and to ensure that stupid situations don't show up like an infinitely repeating loop of play, more than they enjoy tic-tac-toe, a game so obviously imbalanced you don't make a single legitimate choice throughout it .

No, "Balance" is a myth, a pipe dream. A good acid trip. "Balance" can never be achieved. Why? Because we want choices. And when we introduce different choices, those choices reflect the "balance".....

Race: 10+ choices 
Stats: 10 attributes range of numbers (Oh the Choices!!)
Magic: More Choices on Choices, with Choices!
Gear: Choices, more choices, and even yet more choices!!!

You starting to see where I am going? These are all things that are in the game, that affect that finished outcome of a character..... they matter. The fact that Purple People Eaters cost 5 more karma then Green Veggie Sprouters is of little concern after the final tally of those said choices and the effects of said choices on "balance".

First of all it depends on what is going on. If the purple people eatiers gain +2 in xand the green veggie sprouters get +3 in x, and that is all either of these PC types offer, and they take up the same resource, you objectively failed to balance these choices, and the idea that you can 'fix it in post' by just designing is outright not good design. There is wiggle room to determine how good an extra +1 on top of a +2 is in the context of X, but you need to recognize you must think about it and not just arbitrarily make the better mechanical option cost more mechanically.

You open up any game design textbook and they will tell you that asymmetry and variaty in choice is the outcome of balance, not a determent to it, because if you ignore game balance enough some choices stop being a choice. If everything functions roughly the same you end up with first order optimal solutions where one thing is clearly better than everything else at what it does, and you saw this constantly happen in SR4 because a lot of the design wasn't thought through and many gear pieces just had first order optimal solutions.  It still sorta is around in 5e, armor is not in a good spot for player choice right now for example because most of the best armors have no real tradeoff involved, and sometimes there just is a way to potent metavariant or metasapient. Also, riggers are still struggling, obviously, but I don't think that bit is in doubt.

In fact, 5e has a lot of clear thought to balance in it, and the fact you can't see it is saddening. For example, weapon categories in 5e are probably in a better spot than they ever have been, because of changes made purely for the sake of balance coming in and kicking automatics around a little bit by removing their primary benefit (Bonus damage) and instead just flat out making every gun stronger. No longer are the days you would rather be shot by a sniper rifle than machine pistol. There is even a really nuanced curve to weapon classes that make them vary in power based on your dicepool because of the differences now in automatics and single shot.

Other things that prove balance exists in the context of shadowrun include: dodging now being a thing where it was categorically impossible before, not everyone forever being a burnout adept or mage, spirits losing the ability to freely use their own edge, vampires now having to buy qualities to have powers over time, initaitive being entirely reworked to make having an initiative aug less overwhelmingly potent, direct damage magic being heavily nerfed so that indirect magic is now viable, limits, force re-balancing on spells to make it harder for mages to overcast while still geniusly going out of its way to make sure low force casts are still easy for many staple spells, and the evening out of soak values between roles by taking a lot of soak off augmentations and putting it onto personal body armor everyone has access to, and making agents on comlinks outpreforming deckers impossible.

None of these things reduce player choice. They in fact, increase it. You can now toss a fireball instead of a stunball and not be outright hurting yourself more than the enemy. You can not play a soak tank and still get into a fight without instantly dying to a machine pistol. Chosing to use longarms or pistols or bows actually works now, you aren't just depriving yourself of literally over double your base damage on attacks. Chosing to use cram is now going to actually let you fight only a little worse than someone with wired 2 rather than comically terribly. By focusing on making more choices work in the mechanics, otherwise known as balance, we actually have more options than if we didn't. This is why 4e monobuilds aren't really a thing in 5e anymore, you don't see standard pornomancers or nexus mages because there isn't one true way to build an archtype anymore. By using priority to force players to give something up, and making as many choices have a trade off as possible rather than being pure upside or downside, the game got better.

You don't even need a textbook to figure out balance is real, because 5e did it. I shouldn't have to defend the objectively true concept of game balance from someone working on the errata.

Like I get that this may come across as insulting, but this is a serious request: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_(game_design)

Read this article. Notice how many balance terms came from RPG players. It is absolutely something important to this medium. Specifically, based on the next quote, you are looking to Gimp metasapients, IE make them unfairly weak compared to what they get, something not historically looked upon kindly in the RPG community.

But really Sir_Prometheus said it best.
" And the "snowflake tax" isn't meant to be a "barrier" so much as a weighting .....it's not that people don't want to see these characters, they just don't to see them all the time with a frequency that strains credulity. "

I don't see the overflow of metasapients at all. In the history of the hub and net they have made up maybe .5% of PCs. That is literally less than proportional to the population of Seattle, not more, and they logically should actually be overrepresented in the shadows.

But any such mechanical weighting doesn't work, and more importantly is, no matter what, just your own personal viewpoint. If you think you are seeing flocks of infected and shifters being played for mechanical reasons (you aren't by the way) that means the game's balance is off. You need to bring them down and back in line with other options, not make them arbitrarily worse because you don't like them at your table. Any given table has the power to ban or limit these archtypes, not every table has the mechanical knowledge to untangle a poorly written errata made to push an agenda and fix those archtypes mechanically. Putting a mechanical weight on your own personal views of how the game should be played is clearly not valid errata content.

The simple fact that you flocks of Pixie Runners tells me that they are too cheap and should be adjusted up in Karma costs. (and IF they are packing assault rifles, the player smacked up side the head with a physics book)
Pixies aren't too cheap necessarily, and in fact prove how weighting doesn't really work. They already are pretty expensive and even without the ability to use guns they still are a dominant metatype, because weighting isn't actually a good system compared to real balance.

I mean obivously if you pump up their karma cost you will see less, but karma efficiency is a very binary balancing tool and if its the only thing keeping you from doing something you hit a point where something is either efficient or its not and it either sees a lot of play or it doesn't. At the end of the day pixies are flat out the best at mental stat archtypes that don't need to use firearms personally, meaning that even if they aren't karma efficient they will be attractive for these roles because they let you go higher than anything else. You would need to make them so karma inefficient that they hardly even work to balance them, which then would just not be fun or fair. Arguably, as many pointed out, they are the metasapient that jells best with being dual natured and it is somewhat bemusing that they aren't. They have much more overt magical abilities, downright melt into a metaplane when they die, and more importantly have the best chance of surviving and thriving with dual natured due to their ability to fly, conceal themselves, and excellent mental stat line, and as a bonus the roles they tend to gravitate towards anyway aren't especially devastated by being dual natured compared to the more relatively 'front line' infected and shifters who run a far more serious risk of getting forced through a barrier and just ending up on the ground or having to spend a full minute trying to walk through the doorway in a building.

« Last Edit: <09-27-16/1409:37> by dezmont »

Voro

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« Reply #147 on: <09-27-16/1435:06> »
I personally have no problem with there being a 'snowflake tax' on the generation of characters with alternate metatypes.

Keeps the "D'rizzt Effect" down , and helps balance out the population perspective.

Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.

In many cases we are talking a fraction of a percentage of the world's population, there should be a 'tax' on that regardless of the mechanical effects, because you can't rely on the social aspects to have any real baring.... (and we see this in the character creation threads ALL the time....)

I have great problems with this concept. Shadowrunners are inherently exceptional. The fact that they buck the odds is literally why they get paid. Indeed, the entire fluff of the setting goes to great lengths to explain why various different characters are put into circumstances where they can become 'runners.

Options like shifters and metasapients (with the notable exception of pixies) are only chosen when players *really* want to play that particular sort. They already have a mechanical tax - they're poorly designed. With things like mages, it makes *perfect* sense for there to be an abundance of them in the shadows, given the fluff of 5e and - to my understanding - the previous four editions.

If you feel, at your table, that an option is coming up too often, then house rule it it in some way. Do not propose errata be put into place to make those options less viable at all tables.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #148 on: <09-27-16/1440:05> »
stuuuuuffff....

Wow, um, that's a lot of words. 

You seem to be arguing that Dual Natured is some sorta crippling disadvantage.  I see some disagreement on whether it is, on balance, a slightly good thing or slightly bad thing, but I don't see anyone else agreeing with you that it is some sort of huge disadvantage that more than makes up for regeneration, various stat buffs, etc. 

For what's worth, I do agree that balance is important.  Not that it's the only thing, but if X build is optimal enough that everyone starts building their character like that it is less fun. 

As to the current state of shifters (without errata) they seem a little hard to get to work.  The extra initiative dice are pretty nice.  To me the biggest disadvantage is actually that you have to leave your gear and armor behind when you shape shift (and vampires don't when they go to mist form, why?)  I think I could build a pretty good one as a mage or an adept, but even then the lack of bringing your armor with you really hurts. 

But still, those extra initiative dice, and when you add regeneration on top of it.....a lot of scenarios I see have a shifter that never really shifts, just stays in metahuman form wearing armor.  Most NPCs aren't going to aim for the head.  "Typical" opponents aren't going to have experience with shifters at all.  It's really good.  All the same things apply to vampires, of course, but they have much bigger downsides.  oh, and they have to pay 12 karma for regeneration.  Probably should pay more. 
« Last Edit: <09-27-16/1447:05> by Sir_Prometheus »

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #149 on: <09-27-16/1451:15> »
I personally have no problem with there being a 'snowflake tax' on the generation of characters with alternate metatypes.

Keeps the "D'rizzt Effect" down , and helps balance out the population perspective.

Take magic as an example, by lore its rare. As in 2% of the population rare..... or only 140,000,000 people WORLD WIDE can use it (CRB).  And yet most teams seems to pack magic on in spades.

In many cases we are talking a fraction of a percentage of the world's population, there should be a 'tax' on that regardless of the mechanical effects, because you can't rely on the social aspects to have any real baring.... (and we see this in the character creation threads ALL the time....)

I have great problems with this concept. Shadowrunners are inherently exceptional. The fact that they buck the odds is literally why they get paid. Indeed, the entire fluff of the setting goes to great lengths to explain why various different characters are put into circumstances where they can become 'runners.

Options like shifters and metasapients (with the notable exception of pixies) are only chosen when players *really* want to play that particular sort. They already have a mechanical tax - they're poorly designed. With things like mages, it makes *perfect* sense for there to be an abundance of them in the shadows, given the fluff of 5e and - to my understanding - the previous four editions.

If you feel, at your table, that an option is coming up too often, then house rule it it in some way. Do not propose errata be put into place to make those options less viable at all tables.

As I said, shadowrun demographics do not have to match general population demographics.  It's OK for 1/4 runners to be a mage, for instance.  But still nudges in certain directions are good.  In previous editions, you would often have no one playing as humans.  Now, in 5th, the game does a good job (maybe slightly too good) of making human a better choice for most builds than metahumans.  It's good to have the majority of the players bee human.