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What's the best exceptional attribute?

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #30 on: <11-28-14/1101:39> »
Edge is, I agree, the best 'across the board' stat to use Exceptional Attribute on, but when you have lots of other things clamoring for your karma spending, it can sometimes lose out.  I've argued before about whether or not it's better to be consistently faster/better/stronger/tougher or have 'only' a limited value of lucky, and I still prefer the former; a non-Edge Exceptional Attribute will be used every time you use a test involving that attribute, while Exceptional Edge boosts - at most - essentially only eight rolls, simply because Edge is used as a roll rather infrequently.  (Unless your GM calls for Edge tests just to see if you luck out on a clue or something, similar things which I've done in the past.)

So while I agree that what you choose that isn't Edge is going to depend on your archetype, I'll express disagreement with your expressed thought that 'Agility is only useful a subset of Archetypes. (sic)', Marcus.  If you engage in non-magical non-matrix non-rigged combat at all - which is, except for a very, very small percentage, pretty much every character in SR - then Agility is useful to everyone, though yes, if you're going to make it your EA, you're probably a high-combat character.
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #31 on: <11-28-14/1544:37> »
initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total.
As I said, the Initiation wouldn't count for the karma benefit because you're going to initiate anyway, no matter whether your Magic is 6 or 7. So that doesn't count for the karma saving. In other words, you SOLELY save the 7x5=35 karma that I stated, in return for spending 14 and wasting 10 at the very least. Your example with 4 Edge instead of 5 Edge is in fact inferior karmawise: That 5th Edge point is 25 karma, while Exceptional Attribute is 14, so you're wasting the equivalence of 39 karma to save 35.

Sure, for short games it's a nice power boost, but your math is wrong longterm and you're basically crippling the character longterm by going for a short-term benefit. That's not a bargain under any karma-efficient definition.
lol, where is that 10 karma coming from? I don't get it?!
You spend 14 karma and 1 sap, get mag 7.
Without it, to get mag 7 you have to first earn 13 karma, then spend a month downtime to initiate. Then save up 35 karma over months of gameplay to raise 6 to 7.
You still have EDG 4 which is fine, that's four get out of jail free cards.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #32 on: <11-28-14/1605:24> »
The 10+ Karma comes from not spending that SAP on Edge, thereby resulting in a lower Edge than you'd otherwise have. Seems pretty clear to me.

Kincaid

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« Reply #33 on: <11-28-14/1636:52> »
I should preface this by saying most of my chargen work assumes Missions, which means that the level of opposition is relatively flat.  If you're 100+ karma into a progressively harder campaign, different rules apply.

Agility isn't worth it because there there aren't really situations in which you'd need to be one above your augmented maximum.  A lightly-cybered (eqv.) shooter can get to 18 dice very easily, which hits 9 vs. 9 defense dice at an acceptable rate (I consider 85% success acceptable when I'm building characters).  An optimized shooter (Agi 6(+4), Skill 6, Specialization +2, Smartgun System +2, Reflex Recorder +1) shoots with 21 dice.  At this point, you're already risking wasting hits with most guns, so adding an additional die isn't going to give you much.

Edge isn't a bad choice, but I don't think it's good enough to be considered a default choice.  Low Edge characters have problems, but once you get to an Edge of 4-6, you generally have enough (unless your GM is really harsh about refreshing it).  Combat in Shadowrun is short--if I'm rolling initiative for a third time in a single combat, I automatically start to get worried.  If I've build a reasonably competent character, I'll only fail 15% of the time, so maybe I'll use one Edge per combat to offset a bad roll.  Another Edge for "dramatic success," another to save me by adding to a defense test, and another to not get feared, and I've only spent 5.  For me to get to the point that I'd need the 8th Edge point with a human character, I'd have to be playing in marathon sessions with loads of different combats or in very small groups in which every character was expected to have multiple specialties, thereby increasing the number of "critical" rolls (and roles) each character performs.  My Edge 5 Missions character is about 150 karma into things and he's run out of Edge exactly once.  Edge is universally useful, but an infinite supply of it isn't needed.  The resources needed to make a character Lucky could probably be better spent making that character competent, eliminating the need for him to be Lucky.

Resonance wins because it's the most universally helpful attribute in the game and it's used in tests that are difficult to augment.  It beats out Magic because Magic isn't rolled for Drain and magicians have other means available to them (spirits, foci) to add dice to their tests and it's easier to tailor your character around the specializations of Spellcasting than it is the specializations of Resonance-linked skills.  Magic is still very good, but certain types of magicians don't really need it.  You can have a functional mid-magic character; you can't really have a functional mid-resonance character.

Intuition comes in a distant third because it's hard to boost to its augmented maximum without dedicated mage help and it has universally helpful applications.  Perception is one of those "must have" skills, but really, it's here because it adds to your defense tests.  As anyone who has tried to shoot a PhysAd with 16+ defense dice can tell you, defense tests matter.  Adding one die to a test in which you (generally) win ties can swing things tremendously, especially when you're facing heavier ordnance that's difficult to soak even conceding one net hit.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #34 on: <11-28-14/2111:37> »
Mmm.  13 defense dice normally, 23 at Full, plus 5 / 7 / 9  for Unarmed / Dodge / Parry in close combat ... no, I have no idea what you're talking about.  ;)
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Poindexter

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« Reply #35 on: <11-28-14/2132:03> »
The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #36 on: <11-28-14/2142:42> »
The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.

I absolutely agree.  Exceptional Body is a terrible idea from a mechanical standpoint, but can create a really flavorful character.  I assumed a certain CharOp dimension to this question, but really, whatever makes your character cool works.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #37 on: <11-28-14/2153:54> »
The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.

I absolutely agree.  Exceptional Body is a terrible idea from a mechanical standpoint, but can create a really flavorful character.  I assumed a certain CharOp dimension to this question, but really, whatever makes your character cool works.

Well, actually, for a Human, Exceptional Attribute [Body] could be useful since that would allow said Human to have one more health box on Physical track than any other Human (same goes for Elf). And with putting it with Willpower does the same thing.
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Tarislar

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« Reply #38 on: <11-29-14/1313:19> »
Overall,  I rarely would use Ex-Attr myself.

That said, after reading some of the arguments,  I'm kinda leaning towards Willpower.

It defends against many spells & adds a stun box.  Its Drain for Awakened of all types.
Only downside really is its not used in many skills.


Kincaid

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« Reply #39 on: <11-29-14/1744:18> »
Just to play Devil's advocate, the argument against Body and to a lesser extent Willpower is that they're trap options.  If you have a good build and you make good choices in-game, you can reduce the need for that final box in your condition monitor.  Drain can be assisted through metamagic and, even more significantly, metamagic foci.  It's remarkably easy to stack soak dice, making the likelihood of needing that final box to survive fairly remote.  More to the point, if you're soaking 35+ and that box comes into play, the rest of the team is likely dead and things have already gone off the rails.
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Marcus

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« Reply #40 on: <11-29-14/2315:12> »
I hear you T.W.O. But as a great teacher once said to me. Always better to be lucky then good.

If you want to go three qualifier in sure. But there nothing wrong with builds designed to be optimal inside its bailey-wick for combat. Sure its good to have a back up firearm/shock stick/what-have-you, but you don't need EA for your back attack skill. In point of fact in that situation Edge would be stronger then EA as it will apply to both your primary attack skill and any backup skills you might have.

I'll certainly agree if you preferred mode of violence is guns and pointy objects EAA is likely to be the best option.

As to EA is only per character comment that's whatever. If you decide that everything relative then sure everything relative. But as I understood the question, in general what EA is the best? I understood it as where will you get best value for points? To me that answer is clear. I agree that making that stick isn't simple mathematically in priority, but once point buy is back things will get easier.
« Last Edit: <11-29-14/2317:18> by Marcus »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #41 on: <11-30-14/0821:07> »
That's the general consensus, Marcus, yes - it's smarter to be lucky than it's lucky to be smart.  But smarts doesn't run out - luck does, and when luck does, it's catastropic.  And in SR (and most games), lucky actually has a number where you know roughly how much luck you have.  Give me more reliability but some luck any day.
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