[adamu]

Sadly, not sure that thing will do you any good against spirits in SR5 in any case...

[Mercy Merchant]

Well, that is sad.  What does work against spirits?  I would like to feel somewhat less than useless.

[adamu]

As ingenious and resourceful as you are, I cannot conceive your being useless. But for direct combat, high-force spirits are very tough for mundane characters to attack (see critter powers Materialization, Immunity, and Hardened Armor in your core book).
I were you, I'd turn all that matrix-marvelousness to indirect ways of bending the environment in our favor - except that I don't really know what all down here is on the grid and what's not - worth exploring, though....
Not to mention your medical skills, the animal, and a dozen other creative things you might do to stack the odds in our favor....

[Jack_Spade]

I wouldn't say the whip is useless. A R8 spirit has 16 hardened armor which normally would give it 8 auto hits in addition to the normal armor role. Your whip will slash that bonus in half (pun intended), but it still has a soak pool of at least 16 and your damage is down to 8 +net hits (which will be few, since the spirit is on full defense, giving it at least 24 defense. Your reach may take off 2 dice from that, but you are still looking at 7 successes to evade on average (which happens to be your whip's limit)

On the other hand a F6 spirit only keeps 4 armor and two auto hits, while going for something like 18 defense dice and 10 soak.

Things that work against spirits: Al's spirit claw, Isaint's weapon focus, Al2's flame breath and bite, Karasu's and Rick's spells and spirits, Isaint's Bull's Eye Burst with DV 11 AP-14, but most of all:

A band of Harlequins who are expertly trained at fighting shadow spirits and who might be reached over the right comm number.

Other things to consider: Melee teamwork - make an Attack against which the spirit may only defend with Int, add your net hits as dice to another fighter.
Spend a point of edge to use the Neija martial technique (CHA as base DV without armor roll from the spirit, but suffer drain)
Keeping an eye on your teammates and be ready to intervene when they become the victim of the Influence power.

[Mercy Merchant]

Thanks for the good advice and hints.  It sounds like an edge intensive situation.  I will get on some of the things recommended.  So would I need to use an edge for each time I used that Neija technique?  it seems to deliver only stun damage, but I guess every bit helps.  It looks like I might need to learn that for real after this episode.

And DS seems to be back up.

[obidancer]

Ok first with the Resistance:
Mana Barrier Resistance of Energy Drain: 12d6t5 4
F7 (Wil+Mag) Energy Drain from Shadow Spirit: 15d6t5 4

Am I to understand the Barrier fully blocked the Energy Drain?

Second:
Sorry Jack but with AGI 2, Deckard is the slowest. There are ways to remedy to it though

Now regarding the Mana Barrier, Aria, the spirits can still go through and are powerful enough to do so. They just have to spend an action to try to break through it (attack against Structure + Armor so 12 here) or press through it Magic + Charisma [Astral] v. barrier’s Force x 2 Opposed Test. Or a Kamikaze Spirit could just run into it to intersect it, and maybe disrupt it, allowing the other come come inside... but they are taking the chance to be disrupted themselves, and spirits really don't like this.

So overall, good protection but definitively not overpowered.

That said, I'm not limited to one either

Adding one on the Astral Plane; they'll have to go through it before being able to materialize behind and thus behind the Physical one too...
Astral Mana Barrier F8: 20d6t5 10 Limit to 8
Drain Resistance DV5: 15d6t5 5

[Jack_Spade]

@Mercy
Yupp, everytime you want to use it. So I don't recommend it unless you have a perfect opportunity (like being knocked down and winning a contested Con+Cha throw to play possum and get in a surprise attack.

@obi
That works too.
Damn, I thought it was AGI 4. Still, we should be out of the smoke by round 3.

Also, the barrier adds its Force to your resistance test, I thought you had more LOG+WIL than 5?

[adamu]

I wouldn't say the whip is useless. A R8 spirit has 16 hardened armor which normally would give it 8 auto hits in addition to the normal armor role. Your whip will slash that bonus in half (pun intended), but it still has a soak pool of at least 16 and your damage is down to 8 +net hits (which will be few, since the spirit is on full defense, giving it at least 24 defense. Your reach may take off 2 dice from that, but you are still looking at 7 successes to evade on average (which happens to be your whip's limit)

On the other hand a F6 spirit only keeps 4 armor and two auto hits, while going for something like 18 defense dice and 10 soak.

Yeah, I was running these numbers in my head all the way home, and they are not as bad as I had thought. But seems Jack has saved me the trouble of laying the math out.
(plus my head was back in SR2/3, where that whip was, like, DV 10 and AP -6 or something...I guess some dev thought that wasn't powerful enough)

So whip not useless at all, especially against the "smaller" ones.

And hey Obi - nice play on the astral barrier - that puts it back to our original plan of being able to beat on them from behind the barrier as they try to break through it!

[obidancer]

Just had an idea, not sure how viable it could be!

Yukika, Priestess. You told us you're versed in the art of controlling people's emotion, right? Can you control us back to a 'normal' state if any of these creature get a hold of one of us?

@Jack,
Deckard was victim to an Energy Drain, ususally not contested. I am under the understanding that only the Mana Barrier Resist with its Force x2

Also, though it was a F8 spell, I only got 6 successes, and successes are what define the Force of the Mana Barrier so technically it is 'just' a F6 Barrier.

The astral Mana Barrier is faring a bit better: F8 Barrier.

@Adamu,
Thanks. Sustaining the Two spells put me at -4 on most of my actions though. Somebody may want to carry me before I clumsily trip over my own feet!

[Jack_Spade]

@Obi
yeah, that's a bit of weirdness: The hits define the barrier rating (hits x2) to defend against damage that tries to break down the barrier. But spells and spell likes that try to pass through are contested by the Force of the barrier. The two values are usually the same (lodges, ritual circles, etc.). Mana Barrier is the exception (There was a fascinating discussion about it some months ago)

Also: Yeah sorry, I mixed the attacks up. Energy drain is bad - good news is: Blocking line of sight should have interrupted the attack completely.

[Aria]

Ok, looks like all 13 will go entirely astral to break down the astral barrier, thus allowing them (or some of them) to manifest inside the material one... sadly I don't have time to roll the resulting buckets full of D, even electronically... so someone, Jack? could you roll them and let me know how long it might take (without interference) for them to break it down?  I suspect it won't take too long...

This might come in handy...the initiatives are for manifested unless otherwise noted, don't want to re-roll them as hopefully they will still get to manifest and scare the drek out of you 

Wraith [6] Ini 17
Succubus [6] Ini 19
Syphon [6] Ini 20
Shade [6] Ini 22
Syphon [7] Ini 22
Wraith [7] Ini 24
Wraith [6] Ini 26
Succubus [8] Ini 26
Nightmare [8] Ini 26

Syphon [6] Ini 23 astral
Wraith [7] Ini 26 astral
Shade [7] Ini 26 astral
Nightmare [9] Ini 32 astral

[spoiler]Stats:
B  A     R      S  W    L   I        C       M  ESS EDG
F  F+3 F+2 F  F+1 F   F+1  F+2  F     F      F/2
Physical Init. ((F x 2) + 3) + 2D6
Astral Init. ((F x 2) + 1) + 3D6
Skills Assensing, Astral Combat, Con, Gymnastics, Intimidation, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Energy Drain (Karma, LOS, Stun damage), Influence, Magical
Guard, Materialization, Sapience, Spirit Pact

Muse: Compulsion (Creation), Mind Link, Realistic Form
Nightmare: Fear, Mind Link, Shadow Cloak
Shade: Compulsion (Sorrow), Shadow Cloak, Silence
Succubus: Compulsion (Lust), Desire Reflection, Mutable Form, Realistic Form
Syphon: Compulsion (Magic Use), Mind Link, Realistic Form
Wraith: Compulsion (Homicidal Rage), Confusion, Fear[/spoiler]

[Jack_Spade]

No need for manifestation, that F9 Nighmare already made me hide behind the sofa

While in the astral all their attributes are equal to force, so it's rather easy: The Nightmare 9 uses one attack:
Astral Combat: 18d6t5 3
DV 12
Manabarrier resists:
Resist: 16d6t5 6 [16d6t5=5, 2, 5, 6, 6, 2, 2, 4, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 4, 5]
Barrier takes 6 damage, 2 points remaining

Nightmare 8
Astral Combat: 16d6t5 5 [16d6t5=6, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 5, 2, 6, 6, 6, 3, 3, 1, 2]
DV 13
Resist: 16d6t5 2
Barrier takes 11 damage, shatters.

The other 11 manifest

Followed by Isaint giving the team the command to run away and not look back.

[Aria]

Lol...only 9 are manifesting, no need for overkill 

I know it's not much comfort, but they are unlikely to actually want to kill you...they can't feed on your souls that way 

[adamu]

Nice one by the spirits - stay in astral to break the astral barrier - no way (for me, anyway) to beat on them while they are busy breaking the barrier.

But...it takes a Complex action to Materialize.

So that's their first IP of the Combat Turn, right?
And they are vulnerable to attack during that process, right?

Either way, Al uses his held action to attack the first one. So that Delayed action happens as soon as the first one starts to form, then my initiative for the subsequent IP will be 11.
Recapping from earlier - out of smoke, AR off, I got three successes on 10P attack, they get no armor (can they be on full-D while materializing?).

[Jack_Spade]

Yeah they can go full defense. But killing them one by one is a bad plan: The outnumber us and not everyone of us can attack them. What we now need is an AOE weapon wiping all out while they manifest and can't leave the sphere.

4 HE Grenades at a combined 32 DV and AP -4 should do the trick (Problem is, we need to evacuate Rick to at least 16 m outside the blast radius.