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House rule idea: Quick Melee

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martinchaen

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« Reply #15 on: <07-24-14/2050:18> »
I'd make Reckless Melee Attack (SImple Action) have a -3DV to match the +3DV Drain of Reckless Spellcasting (Simple Action).

reyjinn

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« Reply #16 on: <07-24-14/2116:28> »
@Sir_Prometheus
Yeah, I get what you are saying and you are absolutely correct. Just saying that if you didn't think -DV was enough of a penalty for getting to do a melee attack in a simple action, this would be perfectly acceptable logic behind the penalty to def.
What I'm ACTUALLY saying is "Imagine that you are using a smaller brush, but you are hurrying so you're sorta "flailing" it around" Which would make it somewhat more difficult to paint detail ;)

If you compare it to Called shots:Vitals where you lose 4d6 to do +2DV, then I don't think -2DV is enough considering the advantage performing a simple action could be. -3DV like Martin suggested might be enough, not sure.
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voydangel

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« Reply #17 on: <07-24-14/2137:06> »
I can completely understand why some people balk at the idea of having melee attacks be a simple action. The primary argument usually used is that "it is a series of attacks and counterattacks" etc, which is how the book describes the action fluff wise. The problem there is that you/they/people are using a "fluff" argument to counter a "mechanics" argument. That argument is totally valid and 100% correct. The issue here is that the argument doesn't in any way actually counter the argument for melee being a simple action any more now that 5e has come out. Let me explain why.

Let us be clear: the arena we are arguing in is that of mechanics. We are debating whether or not melee attacks need to be a complex action or a simple action. We are not debating about how a melee action should be described to players in the course of a game. I think we can all agree that the description will vary from GM to GM, from game to game, from combat to combat, and from action to action. How to describe stuff happening is "fluff". What action we use is "mechanics". Regardless of which action is used, a GM is going to describe it however is appropriate for that particular combat situation.

In other words, a description can be altered simply by the way the GM or players choose to describe the action taking place. Just because an action is described a certain way in no way changes the in-game mechanics behind the action. Whether I describe it as a series of actions, or one straightforward action, you still have to roll the same dice and it's resisted the same way. So we need to instead view this fluff argument as a mechanical argument for any headway to be made in either direction for this debate. So, that being said...

The reason why melee attacks originally needed to be complex rather than simple was to prevent people from making more than one melee attack in a single combat round (without needing to split pools or whatever). This was due to the fact that you could only have 1 complex action in a round, but you could have 2 simple actions in a round. Firing a gun took only one simple action, but you could get 2 of those in a round. Yes, it makes logical sense that you should be able to shoot multiple bullets in the time that it took to be in a fist fight with someone (moving a finger vs throwing a punch), and it also makes logical sense that your "other" action should be far more limited if you're in the middle of melee combat vs. just pulling the trigger a single time; but that wasn't the real reason why this ruling was made. It was for mechanical game balance reasons. The description about it being a series of moves came after the fact as a means of explaining away the need for the mechanics.

Now, in 5e (as opposed to all previous versions) we have a new limitation: You can only make one attack action per combat pass. This is regardless of the "type" of action (Complex or Simple). This fundamentally changes the balance of the mechanics of the system. We no longer need to use action type as the inherent (and only) limiting factor for melee vs ranged. You can use the new "Multiple Attacks" Free action with either ranged or melee attacks.

In fact, there is no free action that you can combine with a ranged attack that you can't also combine with a melee attack (other than ejecting a clip I suppose). Furthermore: realistically speaking, there aren't any simple actions that a person in melee combat couldn't do just about as easily (or with as much difficulty) as a person firing a gun at people. For the purposes of determining what "other" (simple) actions could realistically be accomplished by a person in combat, melee and ranged attacks are effectively identical.

The argument then becomes basically about this:
For the purposes of game balance (and not descriptive reasons), should a person engaged in melee combat be prevented from doing the following actions?:
Activate Focus: This is a thought, so no.
Call/Command/Dismiss Spirit: Also a thought - no.
Change device mode: We have a free version for linked weapons, but so do guns, so to make things even - no.*
Observe in Detail: probably should be prevented from this, although I would argue that someone shooting should be also, so to make things even - no.*
Pick up/Put down object: drop object is a free, so presumably this is doing something more "gently", picking up things in the middle of melee though isn't impossible at all - no.
Ready Weapon: This is done often, and is not an attack like quick draw (or iajutsu), so - no.
Shift Perception: thought - no
Stand up: - often done, but debatable I suppose - I would rule no.
Take Aim: why would you? but this could be an interesting thing to combine with a melee attack. I like the concept, and don't see why not, so  - no.
Take Cover: easy to do actually, assuming you're close enough to do it. Worst case scenario your attacker/defender comes with you. - no.*
Use Simple Device: if you can do it in the middle of a firefight, then I think you can while in melee. Realism is stretched equally for both melee and ranged in this case, so - no.*

*A number of these stretch the imagination as to how (or why) someone would do one of these things in melee combat, but the imagination is equally stretched as to how someone in the middle of a firefight would be able to do it as well.


The bottom line is this: There is nothing that would unbalancing (or any more unrealistic) about letting melee attacks be simple actions instead of complex actions given the new 5e limit of only being able to take one attack action per combat pass. So - There is no reason why we can't have melee actions described as a "series of" actions and (under the new 5e rules) be a simple action as well.


I personally feel that melee attacks should be a simple action without any additional penalties. Period.

However, given people's feelings about melee being a task that requires more concentration or whatever, I could see there being some sort of trade off where you would still keep "regular" melee attacks as complex actions, but get a simple version where you would get a penalty to either defense or attack dice pools (or both) when making a melee attack as a simple action.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #18 on: <07-24-14/2302:04> »
Actually, I think the -3DV is a good overall system.  Or you could even consider doing something to cap Accuracy...  that may be overcomplicating it actually.  I'd just stick with a simple flat penalty of some sort.  -DV makes sense to me, and the [3] makes sense as it matches the [3] for rushing spellcasting's penalty.
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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #19 on: <07-24-14/2317:33> »
I agree with basically everything voyangel said.

Which by that logic, there shouldn't be any penalty.  Melee actions should just be simple actions.

Anyway, - 3 DV is too much. -3 DV is not equivalent to the +3 Drain, they can't be related like that.  Partly because spellcasting is definitely more powerful than melee (but it does cost you), partly because the mage might or might not take any drain at all, mostly because it's apples and oranges. 

So yeah, that;'s my new proposal.  Melee actions should just be simple actions.  Which is really going to have no effect on anything, most of the time, except that it lets a melee character perform all the same actions a gun guy can, and they totally should be able to do that.  There's just no reason to have melee penalized over firearms, at all. 

martinchaen

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« Reply #20 on: <07-24-14/2344:09> »
Except the fluff as currently written.

Let us know how the rule works out for you. Suggestions and proposals are all well and good; playtest results are better.

Namikaze

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« Reply #21 on: <07-24-14/2347:20> »
Yeah...  I'm gonna disagree that melee actions should be simple actions.  There are penalties for anyone shooting into or out of melee combat for a reason - melee combat is frantic.
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Davidvs

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« Reply #22 on: <07-25-14/0006:17> »
Please post on how this works out in playtesting.

@ voydangel: Great post that helped me understand this issue. Thanks!

One question about the topic: how would making it a simple action speed things up? Either way, a character only gets one action. I see combat taking the same amount of IRL Table Time either way.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #23 on: <07-25-14/0035:13> »
There's a penalty to shoot out of combat, because it gives some situational control, SOME benefit to using melee.  Firearms usually have much higher dmg or or are harder to defend against (various forms of burst fire).

Yeah, I'll share playtests, though I have to convince my group to use alternative rules, first, this is part of that.  (cuz I'll link it here in our forums)

voydangel

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« Reply #24 on: <07-25-14/0534:31> »
One question about the topic: how would making it a simple action speed things up? Either way, a character only gets one action. I see combat taking the same amount of IRL Table Time either way.

It really wouldn't. It would make almost zero mechanical differences at all and wouldn't change much (if anything) regarding speed/complexity of OOC/table play.

Realistically speaking the only difference this change would make under the current (5e) rules is that it would put melee (close combat) based characters on a closer-to-equal footing with characters who are ranged-based by giving melee-based characters a bit more flexibility in what they could do in a combat round other than simply attacking,

Additionally, it might help to fix a few issues that unarmed melee characters currently have under 5e rules that make them slightly less powerful than armed (blades/clubs) melee characters.

But, as noted, this is just me theorycrafting based on my knowledge of the game system and some game design, game balance, and playtesting that I've done in the past. As confidant as I am that my theorycrafting would be proven correct, I too would like to hear/see some actual playtesting reports on this subject.
« Last Edit: <07-25-14/0541:56> by voydangel »
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ZeConster

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« Reply #25 on: <07-25-14/0918:35> »
ZeCOnster, I just don't think there's a good way to translate the drain change....except yeah, dropping the Force, which lessens the dmg, which is part of what were talking about.  But I don't think the comparison is very useful, generally.
It's the only comparison for "make something that's normally a Complex Action a Simple Action instead" that we have, and I was correcting your misconceptions about +3 Drain not being a big deal.



Also, Reyjin's argument is that making a Simple Action melee attack instead of a Complex Action melee attack isn't a matter of using a light jab instead of a heavy punch, it's a matter of only taking half as much time to try and spot an opening. Which is why his focus has been on the word rush, not on the word jab.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #26 on: <07-25-14/1007:38> »
Yes, I understood Reyjin's argument.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #27 on: <07-26-14/1134:04> »
If I can pull out my pistol, draw a bead on a dwarf sitting behind cover, aim for a specific body part, and nail him, I can punch a guy in the face in the same time frame.  If each "shot" action is literally one shot, why is each melee action a full frenzied, well, melee?  I mean, isn't each round a few seconds?

There is literally never a reason to go melee in the game instead of using a gun, at least mechanically.  The samurai and the adept have been thoroughly destroyed in SR4 and 5, and with it went a little bit more of Shadowrun's flavor.

The only reason melee is a complex has nothing to do with "realism" or "VERISIMILITUDE" or any of that.  There's only one reason.  Except it's not even that because one of the biggies of melee combat in older editions - that you can't attack back without being punished for it - is now gone.

Just make it a simple.  It's no more or less realistic then all the other things you can do as a simple action, and giving a penalty to it is at least in my opinion just plain dumb.  It's going "Ok we want to correct this mistake...but not correct it ALL the way."

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #28 on: <07-26-14/1547:55> »
Hey-- he didn't call a person dumb, he called an idea dumb, which in my opinion is perfectly fine. And now you're picking a fight over it. Please don't.

Anyway, yeah, I think it's clear melee as a complex action is just a hold over.

HOWEVER, it is one of the few attacks that can be split, most of the others tgat you can are complex.

So I'm proposing that melee be a simple action, BUT if you want to split an attack it becomes complex.

Tarislar

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« Reply #29 on: <07-26-14/1650:18> »
I'd make Reckless Melee Attack (SImple Action) have a -3DV to match the +3DV Drain of Reckless Spellcasting (Simple Action).

Actually, I think the -3DV is a good overall system.  Or you could even consider doing something to cap Accuracy...  that may be overcomplicating it actually.  I'd just stick with a simple flat penalty of some sort.  -DV makes sense to me, and the [3] makes sense as it matches the [3] for rushing spellcasting's penalty.


I like these better than the -3 dice idea,  and I think I might have been the one to suggest the -3 dice idea.

That said, I feel these would penalize a weak character overly much.

Instead, I'm thinking of a different option, looking at it from a reverse engineering point.....  I think.
Follow me for a minute here....
In theory, Reckless Spellcasting allows us to do 2 Spells in the time we could normally do one.
So you can cast Stun Ball & Heal.    They can't both be attacks but they cut time in half.
So basically 2 Simple Actions = 1 Complex action
We also have splitting fire with allows you to do 2 Attacks at 1/2 the Dice Pool each.
2 Attacks = 1/2 Dice  &  2 Actions = 1 Complex Action.
So from that we could say 1/2 a Complex Action = 1/2 Dice.
So instead of a -3 DV, instead to "Rushed Strike" someone means doing so at 1/2 your Dicepool.

I'll let you decide if that is too large a penalty, but it seemed like it might be an alternate idea.