[TheKT]

I've been reading a lot of character builds and their critiques on here and it seems like most people view the Jack as a bad build. I recently joined an established game, and most of the bases were already covered. So I thought, "well I'll just be a back up for everything." I also specialized in lock picking, so intrusion specialist/jack of all trades. Is this not a good idea? I haven't had much experience with shadowrun, I'm trying to learn so constructive criticism would be appreciated.

[emsquared]

The problem with the JoAT is the three words that are supposed to follow, of course- master of none.

Even if "all the bases" are covered in your group, there are always roles that can use redundancy (really any role). If you have a heavy combat table (or even a rp/combat balanced-table), a different take on a combatant (melee? concealable? explosives/heavy-gunner?) will always play well, especially cuz you can always tack something else onto a combatant (B&E? medic?). Facing, no matter the table-type, is also so handy that it can never hurt (indeed it can be a tremendous advantage) to have 2 of them. Not sure how easy it is to do back-up decking in 5E (assuming that's what you're playing) and still have resources for something else, but that's also a great advantage to a group - one guy running group-tech cover/offense, one dealing with security systems, drones, etc. Mages can be sooo diverse that you'll always have something to do, summoning, buffing, debuffing, face-melting. Basically, every PC type is diverse enough, or capable of being diverse enough, that redundancy in any of the main roles is just fine. You'll be more effective and probably have more fun just playing something that interests you and is more capable at those 2 or 3 things.

[TheKT]

Thanks for the reply. So what kind of dice pool should I be shooting for with my top skills. Right now I have 2 @ 12-14, 2 @ 9-10 and 5 or 6 @7-8

[Marcus]

Well rounded vs Jack of all Trades vs general effectiveness. You run into a couple issues with 5th, namely dice limits, it take decent investment to raise a die limit to the point Where I feel like its going to be a competitive addition to a table. Now there are methods, if you want to be a Jack of all trades I'd look to Edge. Super lucky guy, someone rolling around with 7 Edge can mess around with limits pretty considerably, and with judicial use of edge can make even relatively small pools into something that has a shot. There are a lot of uses for Edge, and it can be effective at board control, and open unexpected paths to achieving the final goal.

With that said I agree there is a lot to be said for things like Conjuring adept, or Alchemist. While these may be more on support side then front line roles, they can do a LOT both alone and to assist other folks in the party. Someone who can hand out healing potions before a fight is someone who will always have friends. Spirits are also very flexible, once you really put some thought behind their use. Combat is something spirits can do, but its much better to use the spirit to keep from getting into a fight, guard, fear and confusion are far and way my favorite spirit powers. You can get lots millage out of them, Guard can prevent so many silly problems, fear is something most thugs are not well prepared for, and even well prepared opponents fair poorly with confusion, thrown a pass or two into a fight.


 

[emsquared]

Thanks for the reply. So what kind of dice pool should I be shooting for with my top skills. Right now I have 2 @ 12-14, 2 @ 9-10 and 5 or 6 @7-8

Depends on your table (where the other players are at), the type of game the GM is playing (street level, elite ops, etc.), and what those skills are.

You mentioned the table is established, so the other players probably have some in-play karma on top, are you getting any (and how much on both accounts)?

Are your top 2 tiers of skills (the 9-14s) in skills that promote your ability to directly effect common elements of the game (combat, B&E, social, legwork, etc.)? Around 12 - 14 seems about par (no birdie or eagle) for your primary role skills, 9 - 10 is probably passable for a 2ndry skill-set too, and depending on what the 5 -6 tertiaries are you should be fine there, however this doesn't sound like a very large skill-set to me for someone who's trying to be a JoAT... That said, you probably don't have to have as large a skill-set to be a JoAT if you're a Decker or Magician.

[edit]Also, I should add a disclaimer, I haven't played 5E at all, just built a number of PCs for my own pleasure, but I think my input is sound.

[TheKT]

Ok I have Assault Rifles at 14
Lock pick and Con at 12.
First Aid and Forgery at 9
Pistols, Longarms, Etiquette, and Negotiation  at 8
Perception at 7
Computer, hardware, and software at 6


Plus a rating 2 Tailored Pheromones so my social skills are at a plus 2

My Limits are 7 physical, 4 mental, and 8 social.

[emsquared]

That's a decent functional skill-set. Wouldn't call it JoAT by any means (no piloting, no stealth, no dip into Decking), but plenty of functionality to have a playable PC. The main problem, I'd say, is the investment in skills from the Firearms Group without actually taking the Group (which I realize you didn't have the Group points or karma for, but it's there), and as always I'm not crazy about having all three - Automatics, Longarms and Pistols - in the first place as you're putting a lot of resources into skills that, for the most part, all do the same thing for you (for instance why not Heavy Weapons instead of Longarms?).

Also, Marcus was spot on about the EDG. A good EDG would go a long ways with this PC.

[TheKT]

That's a decent functional skill-set. Wouldn't call it JoAT by any means (no piloting, no stealth, no dip into Decking), but plenty of functionality to have a playable PC. The main problem, I'd say, is the investment in skills from the Firearms Group without actually taking the Group (which I realize you didn't have the Group points or karma for, but it's there), and as always I'm not crazy about having all three - Automatics, Longarms and Pistols - in the first place as you're putting a lot of resources into skills that, for the most part, all do the same thing for you (for instance why not Heavy Weapons instead of Longarms?).

Also, Marcus was spot on about the EDG. A good EDG would go a long ways with this PC.

That's a good point about the firearms skill. Should I maybe take gunnery or heavy instead if long arms? I'd like to keep pistols if I could. I do have some decking abilities, I just couldn't afford the deck.

What race should this character be? I wanted to go elf but there's already 4 elves and 2 humans in the party.  I know it shouldn't matter but for RP purposes I wanted to be something different.

[emsquared]

I would do Heavy Weapons, a little less niche than Gunnery (for a non-rigger). Pistols + Automatics is good, gives you good options for heavy combat situations and when concealability is needed and everything in between too. And I guess I meant no Hacking/Cracking, you have basic Matrix capabilities which is good.

As for race, unfortunately - with most (8 of 13) of your Skills AGI or CHA-linked - elf is by far and away the most optimal. Barring that, I'd go Human, and barring that, I guess Dwarf since you have the 4 LOG-links too.

[TheKT]

I would do Heavy Weapons, a little less niche than Gunnery (for a non-rigger). Pistols + Automatics is good, gives you good options for heavy combat situations and when concealability is needed and everything in between too. And I guess I meant no Hacking/Cracking, you have basic Matrix capabilities which is good.

As for race, unfortunately - with most (8 of 13) of your Skills AGI or CHA-linked - elf is by far and away the most optimal. Barring that, I'd go Human, and barring that, I guess Dwarf since you have the 4 LOG-links too.

Figured that. Lol. I went ork. Not the most synergy with the character type but I have exceptional attribute CHA. Should I put the poor lady ork out of her misery and start over.

[emsquared]

Heh, well, if the rest of your table isn't overly optimized it's probably not too big of a deal (and it should become less of a deal as you all progress), but I think if they're wringing each drop of mechanical advantage out of their elves you could find yourself feeling inadequate in one of your two focus' (combat and social), at least to start, no matter what you do (dwarf or ork).

[TheKT]

Ok, thank you for all of your help, I really appreciate it.  I'm gonna stick with her and see where it goes, we've got enough Dandelion Eaters in the world...

[RHat]

That's a good point about the firearms skill. Should I maybe take gunnery or heavy instead if long arms? I'd like to keep pistols if I could. I do have some decking abilities, I just couldn't afford the deck.

First, if you're gonna go into two firearms skills, grab pistols and longarms.  Automatics is the jack-of-all-trades skill there; combining pistols and automatics duplicates too much functionality.

Second, decking isn't something you can do half-way - dice pools there kinda need to be cranked out as much as possible, given where the book sets the opposition at.

Third, if we're talking about mechanical advantage, a Human is a better choice for this kind of character - Edge is the generalist's best friend; a high Edge lets you make up for low dice pools, and lets you do so more often.  If you're going to go Ork, I'd still say you want to crank your Edge a bit.

A generalist is not a bad thing, but you can't let yourself try to do too many jobs; it's when the character is spread too thin that a problem comes up.

[emsquared]

While Longarms + Pistols has the greater range in Ranges, that doesn't necessarily mean it has a wider range in functionality. Longarms is not as good for open combat at common ranges as Automatics (I guess this may have changed somewhat with 5E, with it's fire mode/action changes, but I would also guess it's still true, due to things like suppressive fire and how easy it is to compensate for recoil). IME, at least, the times when you actually need the extended ranges of Longarms is very few and very far between. Of course this varies by table/game (more para-military like runs = longer ranges more common), but...

[RHat]

Basically, Pistols has a significant concealability edge, while Sniper Rifles are better against Hardened targets and Shoguns have great utility.  Not so much about the range.