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clones

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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #30 on: <07-11-14/0702:08> »
By the way, do fast-clones have Essence? Do they qualify as targets of Essence Drain? Vampire's Essence Drain?
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #31 on: <07-11-14/0845:37> »
... I would say no.  Essence is a matter of life-force, yes, but it's part spirit, part desire to live, part ... lots of things.  Or you can just say that Essence measures the 'amount of binding your soul has to your body' - and since fast-clones presumably don't have souls ...
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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #32 on: <07-11-14/0853:39> »
... I would say no.  Essence is a matter of life-force, yes, but it's part spirit, part desire to live, part ... lots of things.  Or you can just say that Essence measures the 'amount of binding your soul has to your body' - and since fast-clones presumably don't have souls ...

Thank you =)

That's what I hoped for. Actually, I was afraid there might be some clear ruling that clones have Essence - that would have flagrantly devaluated vampires' dramatic value.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #33 on: <07-11-14/0857:13> »
What about slow-grown clones, then?

I'd say yes to both, because I personally think the alternative is no to both, and I don't think that makes much sense either. Sure, a fast-grown clone might have the mental faculties of a new-born, but even new-borns have "life energy" (aka souls, but my personal view as an agnostic does not mesh with the description of "souls", per se).

Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #34 on: <07-11-14/0912:59> »
@martinchaen,

As there are (apparently) no rulings either way, it's firmly in the domain of GM decisions =) At my table that would translate to Essence-less fast clones and Essence-full slow clones. That is primarily because I care about vampires staying troubled and all mystical and don't really care about Essence making sense - to me it's all Magic =)
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Deacon

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« Reply #35 on: <07-13-14/1358:05> »
This whole fast-growth/slow-growth thing is what gets me.  It's thought of as a switch; you grow a clone body in 90 days, that body is what, the equivalent of 18 years old, ready for harvesting, right?  Well, how the hell do they slow the cellular growth and aging process?!?

You need a cloned liver, you get a replacement in 90 days, but the problem is that the cloned liver is still agiing at an accelerated rate.  If it grew to maturity in 90 days, in another 90 days it's now the equivalent of 36 years old.  Another 90, now it's 54 -- almost decrepit from old age.  And in another 90?  72.  Quite old-aged.  You get a cloned replacement that's from a fast-grown clone, within a year it's failed due to age.

Admittedly by that time you can get another replacement from a clone that's maybe a little less quickly grown.  But if this is a problem in the world, you start seeing why using stolen organs -- the whole organlegging thing -- is still around.  People don't want to get a replacement that will die from old age less than a year after implantation.

I'm sure someone's going to say that they fixed this problem -- but it solves other things about the world.  Why are fast-grown clones vegetables?  Because they're fast-grown.  They're going to be DEAD in a year.  They're useless except as stopgap replacements for damaged or missing parts.

--

Another thing: brain transplants exist in the Shadowrun setting.  So many technologies use the concept.  So, what's keeping corporate honchos from growing eighteen year old clones of themselves when they turn, say, 60 -- and then at 78, having their brain and spinal cord transferred to a nice young 18 year old clone?  Immortality, so long as the brain holds out.  And since organ transplants cost no Essence, this is an immortality technique that works for the Awakened.
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Reaver

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« Reply #36 on: <07-13-14/1500:15> »
Not seen a "brain transplant" yet in SR...

Seen "jarheads"... but that is a far cry from transplanting a brain from one body to the next. (And jarheads go INSANE in weeks)

As for hyper accerated growth, we do this now to a limited degree by growing ears on mice that are then transplanted to humans...
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #37 on: <07-13-14/2231:02> »
I'm sure someone's going to say that they fixed this problem -- but it solves other things about the world.  Why are fast-grown clones vegetables?  Because they're fast-grown.  They're going to be DEAD in a year.  They're useless except as stopgap replacements for damaged or missing parts.
Actually, I'm going to say - with some justification - that they never had this problem.  The 'fast growing' is a result of enzymes and chemicals and complex crap that they have to add at specific points of growth, and for particular lengths of time.  The clones don't just start growing incredibly quickly; they are forced to grow that quickly - hence 'force-grown', which is one of the other terms for a 'fast-grown' clone.

Forced-growth clones are vegetables because their brains aren't given any time to develop the things that are necessary for brains - neurons - which come about at their own peculiar rates, and in part require environmental events to pattern themselves.  They can expand on simple neurons, sure - nerve cells from the spine.  But the brain itself is about as complex a thing we've ever come across.
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Deacon

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« Reply #38 on: <07-14-14/1108:09> »
Got me there, folks.  Okay, I was wrong.
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RulezLawyerZ

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« Reply #39 on: <07-15-14/1607:02> »
NPCs not associated with the characters have the equipment and are doing cloning. They have managed to get DNA of at least one of the PCs and others not necessarily associated directly with the group. I want to make it interesting, but still pretty much along with cannon about clones which is why I asked what I did.

This just screams evil twin/doppelganger plot. I... I like that, a lot. mwahahaha...