[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'm just going to address the last point....no, I'm not an apologist in any way for Mengele.  Nor should anything I have written have made you think so.

I think there's a lot of people here (and everywhere) trying to say nothing Mengele did had any scientific value, because that makes it easier vilefy him....but that's kinda uneccessary, as he's already completely vilifiable.

Indeed, that's the whole point -- regardless of how much sense and reason Mengele's experiments had, a lot or a little, none of that makes any of it less vile.  Someone early on stated "it would all be forgiven if he had cured cancer" -- no it wouldn't.  It would still be just as monstrous, just as disgusting.  THAT REALLY IS THE POINT.  What if everything Mengele did was dedicated to curing cancer?  Would that have made it better?  No, it wouldn't, not at all.

Just like Butch.

This is your opinion, yes, and you are allowed to have it, but make no mistake - it's a very narrow and limited viewpoint, in part because your statements show a black-and-white morality.  Shadowrun is like the real world in that it's actually a lot of shades of grey.  The world of Shadowrun just has an average moral greyness that's several steps darker than the real world's.

To start with, you need to divorce the experiments from the experimenter.  We all agree, I think, that the experiments - the actions taken - by both are monstrous, separated only by scale.  Butch IS afflicting innocents with what amounts to a soul-killing disease, one that wipes out their personality.  The actions, yes, are monstrous.  Mengele's experiments were monstrous as well - whether they were scientifically conducted or not.  The monstrosity of the actions is not in doubt, and the actions are irredeemable.

The experimenter is where the question of 'equivalency' lies, then: is Butch, who has done monstrous things, equivalent to Mengele, who had done monstrous things?  One must look at both their reactions to doing monstrous things as well as their reasons for doing monstrous things.

• Mengele did what he did to satisfy his random curiousity, and (theoretically) to try to make 'the superior Aryan race' even more superior.  He had no purpose other than casual cruelty, whim, self-aggrandizement, and the seeking of power.  Moreover, he did not have any problem with doing what he did - the ones he experimented on simply were not people to him.  This is monstrous.  Or evil, or however you want to look at it.  His intentions, then, do not redeem him.  If he had been seeking to cure cancer, or (for example) polio?  Then yes, actually, though his actions would have still been mostrous, his intentions would have been a redeeming factor.
• Butch, on the other hand, has done what she has done in service to those not herself - in order to save them from the thing she is seeking to cure.  She is, in fact, fighting a war against a very difficult opponent, possibly with the survival of humanity at stake.  Call it curing cancer if you want; her intentions are those for the good of more than just herself or a select few.  She does have emotional upset in regards to her actions; this is taking a psychological, spiritual, and probably physical toll on her body, because she does not like what she is doing.  Therefore, this is not monstrous.

Now, I agree that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, but Butch knows that she's doing wrong, knows that she's doing evil, but also knows that if this thing is going to be beaten, it has to be done now/soon/fast, and the others working on it are neither cooperating with each other nor pushing ahead as fast as they could be - in short, they're not seeming really interested in a cure.  Which means Mengele went to Hell thinking he was just doing animal experiments, for the good of the Aryan Race.  While Butch is going to Hell knowing she's killing actual people, but is taking that sin on herself in order to get the job of 'curing CFD' done so that thousands of lives/personalities/other souls can be saved.

The lady ain't a saint by any stretch of the imagination, but her actions are at least matched in monstrosity by Clockwork's turning technomancers in for torture and vivisection in exchange for a payday.  They may be more monstrous than Kane's piracy, murder, arson, backstabbing and betrayal of runner team after runner team, and all-out war, but that's a judgement call.  Clockwork is closer to Mengele - because he sees his victims as not even (meta)human, as did Mengele - than Butch.

So yeah - the actions have no redeeming value.  But the intentions, and the cost you take to your own soul, sure as hell can.  And I sure as hell hope you don't think otherwise, Prometheus, otherwise you don't have a snowflake's chance in Hell either.

[Namikaze]

So was the last thread closed by Prometheus, or FastJack?

Oh, HELL no.  Same lecture I gave martinchaen.  No one gets some special permission, or special right to discuss an issue that others don't.  The fact that one was real and the other fictional isn't important, in fact, since the whole point is to compare the fictional character to a well known example, you choices are pretty much a real historical example, or some universally known fictional example. 

I used Mengele as an example because I felt the comparison was apt.  What other figure murdered large numbers of people in the name of "science"?  Note that comparable is not the same as equivalency.   Regardless, no one is making you agree with the comparison, that's part of the discussion.  But you don't get to say I can't make the comparison at all, just because someone might find it hurtful.  Feelings don't dictate truth.

Someone who cannot reconcile the feelings and pain of someone else is a monster.  That's what you're saying about Mengele throughout that whole ridiculous thread.  I just thought you should consider that point before I go further.

...

You have repeatedly attacked people on this forum, hurt people on this forum, and treated the people on this forum with a consistent lack of respect that I find appalling.  Blocking you seems to not be enough - you're creating threads like this that get attention from everyone.  You have decided that your opinions and thoughts are more valid and important than anyone else's, and that's pretty monstrous.

[Sendaz]

So was the last thread closed by Prometheus, or FastJack?

Believe Prom closed it after his last comment, plus FastJack usually clearly states when he closes a thread.

[Kincaid]

Since mods usually make a note on a thread when they lock it, I'm assuming that they didn't close the last one.  If I'm wrong, I apologize.

As someone who is ABD in a German history PhD program, I fastidiously avoid most Nazi-related discussions on the internet because I find the mix of Godwin's Law and anti-Semitism toxic.  Also, people manage to screw up the history of things pretty easily.  Since this is a relatively closed community and I don't actually think we have AN trolls lurking here, I'll break my own rule.

So, to clarify.  While Mengele's personal work didn't produce all that much of merit, other doctors performed horrific experiments (notably with regard to hypothermia) that actually produced useful science.  Basically since the end of the war, there has been an ongoing debate as to the ethicacy of using this data to help modern-day medicine.  Indeed, the entire idea of distilling that level of human trauma to "data" is problematic for many people.

A brief bibliography on the ethics of using Nazi research:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/experibibl.html

Whether or not we should be using Nazi experiments in modern medicine is far outside of scope of these forums, so let's all agree not to tackle that issue.

Butch is essentially living this dilemma in real time.  For whatever it's worth, I also think she's infected, or perhaps has simply suffered a psychotic break.  Butch's work is inherently flawed.  Her trials are far too small to create any sort of workable knowledge about CFD (and considering her trials, that may be a good thing) and, more significantly, there's no chance that Butch can develop, produce, and administer a cure.  Megacorps are devoting scores of people to this issue and millions of nuyen; Butch is a street doc.  Even medical breakthroughs we associate with individuals (Salk, Fleming) are the result of the efforts of many many people.  It's unlikely that Butch has discovered something that the megacorps have not, which makes you question why she's conducting this research outside of a sense of curiosity driven by emotion, notably the loss of Fastjack and Riser.  A rational doctor with some level of perspective would realize this.  In this sense, I don't see what Butch is doing as a necessary evil, because I don't see it as necessary at all.  She's sharing her findings with a tiny, non-medical, illegal community.  That's essentially like not sharing them at all.

[Sendaz]

Yeah, but in true dystopian style those corps sinking megayen into the research are not about to share anything even if they have it, or not until Marketing and HQ figure out if there is a way to market it or weaponize it so it dances to their tune. 

Like Butch said her research, funded in part by diverting funds from projects for Docwagon and other corps, is just a drop in the bucket to what some of the companies know, but again they are not about to share it.

She has to try though as what else is there to do?  Wait for oblivion or the good graces of the corps? 

Plus I would not say sharing it with Jackpoint is a waste.  They can redistribute the information and the Smiling Bandit and maybe even KAM can put it to use or pass it to those who can.

What is going to be scary is the corps doing the research are going to want to see what the other boys have, so they will be funding shadowruns to break into labs for the data. 
Labs potentially containing CFD cases and such, so how many runners are going to go in clean and come out carrying away a bit more than just paydata?
I mean isn't that sort of how Fastjack got boned originally?

[Namikaze]

The lack of information from the megas is definitely a major factor in the dystopia of Shadowrun.  But that's part of what makes being a shadowrunner so great: you're a criminal, and you do bad things - sure.  But you're doing these bad things because the information, the people, need to be free.  The megas represent this sort of order that is completely stifling, while the runners represent this brilliant chaos that longs to be in the world.  It's oversimplifying to say that either extreme is bad, but for the purposes of this discussion, I think Butch has not gone too far to the extreme.  I would imagine that what Butch has done is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the megas.  The megas have either caused CFD by torturing e-ghosts (that's what it seems to be from the perspective of several of these headcases) or they've done something worse.  Or they've contacted some sort of alien (not necessarily extraterrestrial) intelligence.  Any of those options are WAY worse than what Butch did.

To build on this, my game takes place in 2075 still - I'm considering having the team gather subjects for Butch's studies, and also I'm considering having the team perform a number of extractions of scientists that simply want to get out of the CFD research fields.  Perhaps even a scientist or two that worked on projects that are related to the creation of CFD (Vulcan, I think was the name of one of the projects).  This should give the players a good sense of just how bad things can be, and also hopefully give the characters a moral lesson that should be interesting to see played out.

While it's fun to have these thought experiments on the forums, I think it's more fun to have them in the game.

[Kincaid]

While it's fun to have these thought experiments on the forums, I think it's more fun to have them in the game.

Agreed.  However unrealistic Butch's protocols are, the point of it all is that it gives GMs an opportunity to involve players in the setting's metaplot by having things intersect with the shadows.  Good storytelling trumps the importance of medical research realism.

[Sengir]

• Butch, on the other hand, has done what she has done in service to those not herself - in order to save them from the thing she is seeking to cure.
  

...by infecting random people to see what happens?

[Sendaz]

While it's fun to have these thought experiments on the forums, I think it's more fun to have them in the game.

Agreed.  However unrealistic Butch's protocols are, the point of it all is that it gives GMs an opportunity to involve players in the setting's metaplot by having things intersect with the shadows.  Good storytelling trumps the importance of medical research realism.

Oh yes, there will be much work for runners indeed one way or another.

[ProfGast]

The experimenter is where the question of 'equivalency' lies, then: is Butch, who has done monstrous things, equivalent to Mengele, who had done monstrous things?  One must look at both their reactions to doing monstrous things as well as their reasons for doing monstrous things.

I agree that this is really the crux of the argument, or at least why many people here are disagreeing with SirPrometheus.
As far as I can tell, the argument on that side is that Butch has done morally reprehensible things, and doing morally reprehensible things makes you evil.  Therefore Butch is Evil.

The same logic goes Mengele -> Reprehensible -> evil and by that logic Mengle -> Evil == Butch -> Evil, Evil == Evil THEREFORE Butch == Mengele.

The part where I think many people disagree is the middle step. The argument, that anything which is at its base morally "evil" is the same, regardless of intent or purpose.  There are some who believe that any evil, no matter how big or small, is Evil and cannot be forgiven.   There are others who believe that evil carried in the pursuit of a greater goal or for the greater good is somehow more forgivable than evil performed for evil's sake.

By the first argument, yes, a Butch-ian and a Mengelian villain are the same.  They have both committed acts that violates the morals of society.   They are both Evil, therefore they are both the same.

By the second argument, they are not in any way the same:
Taking fiction and fact aside for the moment, in many ways a Mengelian villain is someone who is evil because of opportunity.  They find themselves in a position where they have access or the ability to conduct experiments and they do so.  Whether or not they actually have scientific merit for what they do is almost besides the point.  Had they not found themselves in a position where they could have access to an entire population to perform tests on, it can be argued they would never have commited any crimes or actions that could be construed as evil.  They are an opportunist.  They are evil, because they "can."

A Butch-ian villain on the other hand, has commited evil, same as a Mengelian one.  However, the driving force behind their evil, is not "because they can," but rather "because they must."  They are driven by a need, or a perceived need, to commit atrocities in order to pursue a goal.  Whether or not this is any more or any less "evil" than a Mengelian villain is the crux of the debat between these two viewpoints.  A proponent of the necessary evil, would say that they are less evil, if only because of their intentions.  This I think is really the primary difference of opinion.  And I think that neither side should establish their opinion as fact.

For the record, I place myself in the second boat.  I think your intentions are heavily influence what is or isn't evil.  It does not make acts any more forgivable, or any less atrocious.  But I think the intent matters.

EDIT: Didn't realize this was a continuation of a closed topic, if this should not be continued, I will delete my post.

[TheWanderingJewels]

therein lies a problem with Film Noir with people trying to write up really bad people. Sometimes, it actually happens.

Butch seems to be one of those sorts that actually have reconciled....but simply do not care if the larger end is met.  Congrats, you have created a Cold, Focused, Obsessive who will do what is necessary to complete and objective. No matter the cost.

This is why villians with some restraint are more interesting. Otherwise you end up with yet another sociopath

[Bull]

The thing to keep in mind is that Jackpointers exist almost solely as a mouthpiece to present in-game material.  We give them character so that you can see their biases and so that they're more fun to read and write, but ultimately, they serve to facilitate presentation of game information.  This means sometimes their characterization ends up a little flatter than ideal.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I don't think Butch really came across as being all that flat.  I already knew that she was relatively callous, and veyr results-driven - which actually means, WJ, that she cares exceedingly whether or not the 'larger end' is met.  That she's being shown to have had qualms about the level of ruthlessness she's had to go to in order to get information actually makes her a more rounded character.

You know, in my never-so-humble opinion ...

[Namikaze]

The thing to keep in mind is that Jackpointers exist almost solely as a mouthpiece to present in-game material.  We give them character so that you can see their biases and so that they're more fun to read and write, but ultimately, they serve to facilitate presentation of game information.  This means sometimes their characterization ends up a little flatter than ideal.

I actually felt like Butch's reactions when called to the carpet were very genuine, very authentic, and very painful.  I don't know who wrote the blurbs, but I thought they were fantastic.  As to JackPoint feeling "flat" - I personally think of it a lot like these forums, but instead of everyone posting whatever random thoughts they have, most of the conversation is on-topic and handled through PMs. 

[Bull]

Yeah, I'm not necessarily talking about Butch here, per se.  Just more of a general statement.  (I've only VERY lightly skimmed Stolen Souls so far). 

Sometimes we get the opportunity to fix characters later on.  /dev/grrl was pretty much a one note character who existed almost solely to be the "token new girl" and to ask the "What does this mean" leading questions to give the JPers an excuse to explain stuff that everyone should already know.  But after a while, she started to become very flat because she hadn't evolved yet.  So a couple of us deliberately set out to rehab the character a bit, give her more attitude, and give her some more personality.  However, that also left Jackpoint without any FNGs to ask the stupid questions.   There's plans to fix that some in the near future (and it's already started), but it's slow going, because we don't want to return to the old days of a constant stream of random character names that were used as throwaways of the old Shadowland system.  We like that the characters have background and have personality.

So it's a fine line to walk, and sometimes it falls a bit flat.