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Sybill virus (CFD): Possible cures?

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FastJack

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« on: <06-05-14/1202:20> »
Okay, still digesting Stolen Souls (and I'll get the update to the Shadowtalk lists done soon), but in the mean time, let's talk about possible cures.

(Mostly because I don't want my namesake to finish his life as a Rager in the Barrens...  :'()

Go ahead an post your best (or worst) methods that you think could cure the virus (without leaving the patient a quivering lump of flesh, of course) and we can dissect discuss the merits and flaws in the plans.

martinchaen

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« Reply #1 on: <06-05-14/1213:01> »
I'm just going to put this out there;

Dissonant technomancers.

Yep, that's right, I said it. You get a dissonant to infect the nanites with some sort of dissonant/discord virus that either breaks the nanites down straight or that rewrites them somehow, tasking them with recompiling the data that they've overwritten. My gut feeling is that if all the infected nanites are really doing is overwriting data, there's got to be a Data Trail (hah, see what I did there!?) in the genetic makeup of the person they're currently inhabiting, and if a data trail does exist it could potentially be followed, in a way, back to the original data.

Other than that, I'd be curious to see what HERF therapy would do to a subject. Oh, and radiation, perhaps; chemotherapy, but for nanites. The drug trials in the book were pretty extensive, though, so I'm not sure this would actually accomplish anything.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #2 on: <06-05-14/1213:48> »
Natural immunity was brought up as possible within the book, and I got to wondering about how exactly that would work. My best answer is a brain that is so unusual the nanites can't adapt to it.

Of course, such a brain wouldn't result in a person anywhere near normal; you're probably talking a combination of autism, ADD or ADHD, chemical imbalance-caused depression, brain damage, and maybe a few other structural issues. Basically, this is not a person who would be capable of functioning in society without a lot of help.

For cures, I would suggest an aggressive combination of electroshock therapy and spirit possession.
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Sendaz

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« Reply #3 on: <06-05-14/1232:25> »
It is certainly a dilemma


A) Regular nanite hunters attempts to simply destroy the CFD nanites doesn't work since the CFD version seems to be able to infect/absorb the normal Hunter killers. 
Possibly a new composition of the H-K using different components may make them more resilient to being taken over by the CFD nanites and let them better attack them.

Downside is even if they do make something that the CFD nanites can't subvert for their own usage, it doesn't do much for someone already heavily altered, limiting this to being more preventative/early treatment  in itself, but at least allows for other methods to then go in to repair the damage.

B) Tying into this but on a more transhuman bent is not so much beat them, but join them.   Head Crashes have shown that the various versions of CFD can be overwritten by another version, so basically we need to figure out a way to wire up an e-ghost based on the original patient, create the accompanying nanite set designed for infecting that body only (maybe a mini-hive that if any nanites go outside the body they self-destruct so you don't end up adding to possible infections).  Use massive doses of the new persona nanites to basically kick out the first invader. Plus the newly entrenched copy of the original persona should help fend off further invasions.

Problem here is most of us do not fully understand how the whole process of making this could work and the powers that do are not sharing that info.

Ironically given Fastjack's amount of time on the web, there could well be a copy of his persona somewhere and if that were found it could be used to stabilize him. And the search for this sort of data leads us to....

C) Resonance, specifically tapping deep knowledge.  There are tales of how any information online is still buried somewhere in there and can be retrieved.  How deep this runs and could personas still be 'backed up' somewhere in the depths of the resonance?  Not my area of expertise, but maybe it could be something for a TM to explore.
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FastJack

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« Reply #4 on: <06-05-14/1241:49> »
From the book, it's a numbers game when it comes to the nanites. Hunter/Killers are just too dumb and get overwritten by the infected before they can do their job. The key may be Plan 9. Conversion of a population of infected nanites to show that what they are doing is wrong, so they fight *for* the victim instead of against them. Then it's simply a matter of overloading the subject with the "ally" nanites, the allies reading the code from the infected and repairing the damage they did to the subject.

Sendaz

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« Reply #5 on: <06-05-14/1303:43> »
Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?

They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?
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Mirikon

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« Reply #6 on: <06-05-14/1337:19> »
I'm going to have to agree with Martin on this.

Think about it for a second. A virus. No seriously, a computer virus. Nanites are little tiny computers when you get down to it. The best way to kill a computer remotely (since we have trouble taking out the nanites physically) is to use a virus to rewrite the nanites base code into something self-destructive. Like how the US totally didnt use a virus to destroy several Iranian centrifuges to slow their nuclear weapons program that they totally didn't have.

There are three main problems with this approach. First, you have to get a sample of the nanite base code so you can not only program a virus in the proper language, but also make it so that it does what you want it to do. This is no simple task, as the base code is either stored on a computer in a NeoNET or EVO lab that is probably swarming with nanites that escaped containment, or on the nanites themselves, which are hard to hack into. However, once you get a copy of the base code, and write a vaccine or anti-virus, you've got a good shot of disabling the nanites. For maximum effect, finding Patient Zero, along with the original programming, would be key. Just like regular viruses, computer viruses mutate over time, though usually from bugs in transmission. We already know that Sybil has split into multiple strains. And while we classify them into several broad categories, it is fairly evident that there are multiple strains within each category. You either have to write vaccines for each strain separately, or you have to go to the least common denominator, and find something that affects them all. The most effective viral measures would also be the most simple ones. There are three kinds of attacks you could try to disable the nanites without harming the patient.

*Delete: Have the virus find and delete the subroutine that allows the nanites to make more nanites. Because nanites degrade in a person's system, over the course of a few weeks, the nanites will be purged.
*Wipe: A very simple command, at the machine code level, have the nanites reformat their own drives. For those of you that don't know computers, this means they will erase everything, even their own operating systems. Without replication subroutines, the nanites will be purged.
*Add: Add junk code with a priority level that prevents the nanites from doing anything else until that code is executed, taking as much processing power as is available to do so. A great example would be to tell the nanites to calculate pi to the last digit. At worst, this will halt the nanite's progress indefinitely, allowing other methods to eliminate the nanites. At best, this will cause other functions, such as the replication routines, to go offline, in which case the nanites will be purged.

That's all well and good, except for problem two, delivery. There's no two ways about this, you have to hack into the nanites. You have to hack them a second time if you were already there the first time to get the code. Delivery is the big problem. There's really only two methods for this. Either you hack the nanites through their group 'node', which is going to be hellaciously difficult, or you send in Trojan Horse nanites to deliberately get converted and spread the disease throughout the nanite population, like that episode of Star Trek: Voyager where a kid was deliberately sent to get assimilated, because he'd been genetically modified to upload a virus to the Borg cube. However, sending in more nanites leads us to...

Problem 3, counterhacking. These nanites function as an AI, and AIs are reasonably good at protecting themselves from matrix attacks. Moreover, these AIs get stronger the more nanites are in the system. So this leaves you with only two options. Go black trenchcoat, and don't get seen until the virus is uploaded, or go pink mohawk and bring enough backup that you can beat down the AI long enough to upload the virus. Either way, getting the virus in is only half the battle. See, if you have a virus running through your device, you can try and fight it, or clean it from your system. Somehow you have to disable or distract the AI long enough to keep them from doing that.


Now, those are some fairly significant problems, but using Technomancers lessens the degree of difficulty. Remember how I said in problem 1 that having the base code from Patient Zero would be best for writing the virus? Anything that has ever been on the Matrix is in the Endless Archive, unless another technomancer or entropic sprite removes it. This means a technomancer (or team of technomancers) could dive the Archive, and find the base code. This turns what is a nigh impossible task into a fragging difficult one, but still. Counterhacking is another point where TMs are insanely useful. Part of the reason Jormungand was so destructive was because it was a partly Resonance (ok, Dissonance) creation. Non-Technomancers have trouble countering TM creations, which means a group of TMs making the virus would be able to make it much harder for the AI to counterhack, if it was possible at all.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #7 on: <06-05-14/1343:22> »
Very cool, Mirikon; awesome writeup!

This sounds like the perfect opportunity for the surviving members of Echo Mirage to come out of retirement, RED stylee (the Bruce Willis movie, for those of you who haven't seen it yet)!

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #8 on: <06-05-14/1348:02> »
I assume possession by a spirit can at least help slow, if not stop, the infection. You won't be in control, but at least you won't loose control once a real cure can be found.

Cybermancy might work. Since you're dead, but your spirit is trapped in your body and not really connected to your brain. But the downside is you'll be actually dead in a few months.

Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.

Coming to an agreement with the AI and merging your personalities seems to be the only "cure" right now that works.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #9 on: <06-05-14/1433:01> »
Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?

They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?

Yes, they can. The first story from Stolen Souls establishes that.

Edit: Also, Butch mentions them modifying nanites to eat through protective suits on page 40 of Stolen Souls
« Last Edit: <06-05-14/1541:24> by SlowDeck »
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FastJack

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« Reply #10 on: <06-05-14/1443:14> »
Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...

We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.

martinchaen

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« Reply #11 on: <06-05-14/1458:52> »
Why is an EMP not viable? They may not be powered by a power source that's vulnerable to the EMP, but they are tiny machines. If a low-level electrical field kept them from entering the body, what about high-level shock therapy treatments?

Failing that, how about cryogenics? Freezing the subject, if that kind of technology even exists, or at least cooling them down enough to where the subjects body reaches a sufficiently low temperature, effectively cutting off power to the little buggers.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #12 on: <06-05-14/1502:57> »
EMPs are not as useful because some of the nanites are soft nanites (which are effectively nearly immune to EMPs) and because any EMP powerful enough to affect the nanites on the level necessary would have serious negative effects on the infected person.

But, I see we both agree on electroshock!

Also, cryogenics are a bad idea; it requires lowering the internal body temperature until the nanites run out of power. This would invariably kill the subject. Edit: Run and Gun, in its section on killing frost, covers the damage this would cause.
« Last Edit: <06-05-14/1507:03> by SlowDeck »
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Sendaz

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« Reply #13 on: <06-05-14/1547:25> »
Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?

They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?

Yes, they can. The first story from Stolen Souls establishes that.
To a certain degree.

In the first story he was contemplating intentionally infecting his partner but he knew that if he did that it would just overwrite her and generate a copy of himself or something close due to the meshing. He could not control or limit the overwriting if it occurred.

At the end when he was killed the nanites in the blood were trying to move to a new host  he seemed aware of it and was looking forward to taking over the next host so he does seem to be able to guide them to some degree, making them lay in wait, but again once they make contact the nanites are going to do their thing and I do not think he has much say over that, if he even wanted to.

It is like there is two brains so to speak, the basic nanite level performing its duties and adapting as necessary to complete that task and the persona which is carried along and can exert some guidance, but the question remains how much control does the persona really have?
« Last Edit: <06-05-14/1548:58> by Sendaz »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #14 on: <06-05-14/1637:28> »
Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...

We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.
This is why I see a virus or trojan as a better way to go about it than a direct hack. Then you don't have to hack each nanite, you just have to get the swarm infected and let things take their course. If you were going to do the hack, you'd need to try and hack the nanites as a cloud server, rather than as individual processors. Basically, take all the lessons we learn from Star Trek when they play with the Borg. Use their strength (the hive mind) against them. That's the only way you'll break things loose without destroying everything.

Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened. I would state that, for instance, the attempted cyborg treatment did a good job of removing the disease, but by that point the patient had already been too badly damaged to recover. There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done. So while a complete recovery may be possible for early stages of CFD once a cure is found, those who are in the later stages, especially the final stages, are likely unrecoverable.
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