Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: FastJack on <06-05-14/1202:20>
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Okay, still digesting Stolen Souls (and I'll get the update to the Shadowtalk lists done soon), but in the mean time, let's talk about possible cures.
(Mostly because I don't want my namesake to finish his life as a Rager in the Barrens... :'()
Go ahead an post your best (or worst) methods that you think could cure the virus (without leaving the patient a quivering lump of flesh, of course) and we can dissect discuss the merits and flaws in the plans.
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I'm just going to put this out there;
Dissonant technomancers.
Yep, that's right, I said it. You get a dissonant to infect the nanites with some sort of dissonant/discord virus that either breaks the nanites down straight or that rewrites them somehow, tasking them with recompiling the data that they've overwritten. My gut feeling is that if all the infected nanites are really doing is overwriting data, there's got to be a Data Trail (hah, see what I did there!?) in the genetic makeup of the person they're currently inhabiting, and if a data trail does exist it could potentially be followed, in a way, back to the original data.
Other than that, I'd be curious to see what HERF therapy would do to a subject. Oh, and radiation, perhaps; chemotherapy, but for nanites. The drug trials in the book were pretty extensive, though, so I'm not sure this would actually accomplish anything.
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Natural immunity was brought up as possible within the book, and I got to wondering about how exactly that would work. My best answer is a brain that is so unusual the nanites can't adapt to it.
Of course, such a brain wouldn't result in a person anywhere near normal; you're probably talking a combination of autism, ADD or ADHD, chemical imbalance-caused depression, brain damage, and maybe a few other structural issues. Basically, this is not a person who would be capable of functioning in society without a lot of help.
For cures, I would suggest an aggressive combination of electroshock therapy and spirit possession.
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It is certainly a dilemma
A) Regular nanite hunters attempts to simply destroy the CFD nanites doesn't work since the CFD version seems to be able to infect/absorb the normal Hunter killers.
Possibly a new composition of the H-K using different components may make them more resilient to being taken over by the CFD nanites and let them better attack them.
Downside is even if they do make something that the CFD nanites can't subvert for their own usage, it doesn't do much for someone already heavily altered, limiting this to being more preventative/early treatment in itself, but at least allows for other methods to then go in to repair the damage.
B) Tying into this but on a more transhuman bent is not so much beat them, but join them. Head Crashes have shown that the various versions of CFD can be overwritten by another version, so basically we need to figure out a way to wire up an e-ghost based on the original patient, create the accompanying nanite set designed for infecting that body only (maybe a mini-hive that if any nanites go outside the body they self-destruct so you don't end up adding to possible infections). Use massive doses of the new persona nanites to basically kick out the first invader. Plus the newly entrenched copy of the original persona should help fend off further invasions.
Problem here is most of us do not fully understand how the whole process of making this could work and the powers that do are not sharing that info.
Ironically given Fastjack's amount of time on the web, there could well be a copy of his persona somewhere and if that were found it could be used to stabilize him. And the search for this sort of data leads us to....
C) Resonance, specifically tapping deep knowledge. There are tales of how any information online is still buried somewhere in there and can be retrieved. How deep this runs and could personas still be 'backed up' somewhere in the depths of the resonance? Not my area of expertise, but maybe it could be something for a TM to explore.
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From the book, it's a numbers game when it comes to the nanites. Hunter/Killers are just too dumb and get overwritten by the infected before they can do their job. The key may be Plan 9. Conversion of a population of infected nanites to show that what they are doing is wrong, so they fight *for* the victim instead of against them. Then it's simply a matter of overloading the subject with the "ally" nanites, the allies reading the code from the infected and repairing the damage they did to the subject.
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Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?
They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?
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I'm going to have to agree with Martin on this.
Think about it for a second. A virus. No seriously, a computer virus. Nanites are little tiny computers when you get down to it. The best way to kill a computer remotely (since we have trouble taking out the nanites physically) is to use a virus to rewrite the nanites base code into something self-destructive. Like how the US totally didnt use a virus to destroy several Iranian centrifuges to slow their nuclear weapons program that they totally didn't have.
There are three main problems with this approach. First, you have to get a sample of the nanite base code so you can not only program a virus in the proper language, but also make it so that it does what you want it to do. This is no simple task, as the base code is either stored on a computer in a NeoNET or EVO lab that is probably swarming with nanites that escaped containment, or on the nanites themselves, which are hard to hack into. However, once you get a copy of the base code, and write a vaccine or anti-virus, you've got a good shot of disabling the nanites. For maximum effect, finding Patient Zero, along with the original programming, would be key. Just like regular viruses, computer viruses mutate over time, though usually from bugs in transmission. We already know that Sybil has split into multiple strains. And while we classify them into several broad categories, it is fairly evident that there are multiple strains within each category. You either have to write vaccines for each strain separately, or you have to go to the least common denominator, and find something that affects them all. The most effective viral measures would also be the most simple ones. There are three kinds of attacks you could try to disable the nanites without harming the patient.
*Delete: Have the virus find and delete the subroutine that allows the nanites to make more nanites. Because nanites degrade in a person's system, over the course of a few weeks, the nanites will be purged.
*Wipe: A very simple command, at the machine code level, have the nanites reformat their own drives. For those of you that don't know computers, this means they will erase everything, even their own operating systems. Without replication subroutines, the nanites will be purged.
*Add: Add junk code with a priority level that prevents the nanites from doing anything else until that code is executed, taking as much processing power as is available to do so. A great example would be to tell the nanites to calculate pi to the last digit. At worst, this will halt the nanite's progress indefinitely, allowing other methods to eliminate the nanites. At best, this will cause other functions, such as the replication routines, to go offline, in which case the nanites will be purged.
That's all well and good, except for problem two, delivery. There's no two ways about this, you have to hack into the nanites. You have to hack them a second time if you were already there the first time to get the code. Delivery is the big problem. There's really only two methods for this. Either you hack the nanites through their group 'node', which is going to be hellaciously difficult, or you send in Trojan Horse nanites to deliberately get converted and spread the disease throughout the nanite population, like that episode of Star Trek: Voyager where a kid was deliberately sent to get assimilated, because he'd been genetically modified to upload a virus to the Borg cube. However, sending in more nanites leads us to...
Problem 3, counterhacking. These nanites function as an AI, and AIs are reasonably good at protecting themselves from matrix attacks. Moreover, these AIs get stronger the more nanites are in the system. So this leaves you with only two options. Go black trenchcoat, and don't get seen until the virus is uploaded, or go pink mohawk and bring enough backup that you can beat down the AI long enough to upload the virus. Either way, getting the virus in is only half the battle. See, if you have a virus running through your device, you can try and fight it, or clean it from your system. Somehow you have to disable or distract the AI long enough to keep them from doing that.
Now, those are some fairly significant problems, but using Technomancers lessens the degree of difficulty. Remember how I said in problem 1 that having the base code from Patient Zero would be best for writing the virus? Anything that has ever been on the Matrix is in the Endless Archive, unless another technomancer or entropic sprite removes it. This means a technomancer (or team of technomancers) could dive the Archive, and find the base code. This turns what is a nigh impossible task into a fragging difficult one, but still. Counterhacking is another point where TMs are insanely useful. Part of the reason Jormungand was so destructive was because it was a partly Resonance (ok, Dissonance) creation. Non-Technomancers have trouble countering TM creations, which means a group of TMs making the virus would be able to make it much harder for the AI to counterhack, if it was possible at all.
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Very cool, Mirikon; awesome writeup!
This sounds like the perfect opportunity for the surviving members of Echo Mirage to come out of retirement, RED stylee (the Bruce Willis movie, for those of you who haven't seen it yet)!
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I assume possession by a spirit can at least help slow, if not stop, the infection. You won't be in control, but at least you won't loose control once a real cure can be found.
Cybermancy might work. Since you're dead, but your spirit is trapped in your body and not really connected to your brain. But the downside is you'll be actually dead in a few months.
Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
Coming to an agreement with the AI and merging your personalities seems to be the only "cure" right now that works.
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Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?
They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?
Yes, they can. The first story from Stolen Souls establishes that.
Edit: Also, Butch mentions them modifying nanites to eat through protective suits on page 40 of Stolen Souls
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Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...
We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.
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Why is an EMP not viable? They may not be powered by a power source that's vulnerable to the EMP, but they are tiny machines. If a low-level electrical field kept them from entering the body, what about high-level shock therapy treatments?
Failing that, how about cryogenics? Freezing the subject, if that kind of technology even exists, or at least cooling them down enough to where the subjects body reaches a sufficiently low temperature, effectively cutting off power to the little buggers.
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EMPs are not as useful because some of the nanites are soft nanites (which are effectively nearly immune to EMPs) and because any EMP powerful enough to affect the nanites on the level necessary would have serious negative effects on the infected person.
But, I see we both agree on electroshock!
Also, cryogenics are a bad idea; it requires lowering the internal body temperature until the nanites run out of power. This would invariably kill the subject. Edit: Run and Gun, in its section on killing frost, covers the damage this would cause.
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Maybe, but the question is are the nanites under the control of the personas that are being written in by them or are the resulting personas just the delivered parcel?
They may well feel bad about what they are doing, but can they exert control over the nanites themselves?
Yes, they can. The first story from Stolen Souls establishes that.
To a certain degree.
In the first story he was contemplating intentionally infecting his partner but he knew that if he did that it would just overwrite her and generate a copy of himself or something close due to the meshing. He could not control or limit the overwriting if it occurred.
At the end when he was killed the nanites in the blood were trying to move to a new host he seemed aware of it and was looking forward to taking over the next host so he does seem to be able to guide them to some degree, making them lay in wait, but again once they make contact the nanites are going to do their thing and I do not think he has much say over that, if he even wanted to.
It is like there is two brains so to speak, the basic nanite level performing its duties and adapting as necessary to complete that task and the persona which is carried along and can exert some guidance, but the question remains how much control does the persona really have?
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Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...
We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.
This is why I see a virus or trojan as a better way to go about it than a direct hack. Then you don't have to hack each nanite, you just have to get the swarm infected and let things take their course. If you were going to do the hack, you'd need to try and hack the nanites as a cloud server, rather than as individual processors. Basically, take all the lessons we learn from Star Trek when they play with the Borg. Use their strength (the hive mind) against them. That's the only way you'll break things loose without destroying everything.
Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened. I would state that, for instance, the attempted cyborg treatment did a good job of removing the disease, but by that point the patient had already been too badly damaged to recover. There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done. So while a complete recovery may be possible for early stages of CFD once a cure is found, those who are in the later stages, especially the final stages, are likely unrecoverable.
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Natural immunity was brought up as possible within the book, and I got to wondering about how exactly that would work. My best answer is a brain that is so unusual the nanites can't adapt to it.
Of course, such a brain wouldn't result in a person anywhere near normal; you're probably talking a combination of autism, ADD or ADHD, chemical imbalance-caused depression, brain damage, and maybe a few other structural issues. Basically, this is not a person who would be capable of functioning in society without a lot of help.
For cures, I would suggest an aggressive combination of electroshock therapy and spirit possession.
I'm not so sure about this I vaguely recall backstory that animal and dragon minds have difficulty with the matrix (as in potentially being driven insane by the exposure) and they are quite capable of functioning normally. I also recall a suggested way to hide your fingerprints when coding/hacking was a skilljack (or something) that changed your behavior markedly enough your identifying marks changed (for example going from short efficient coding to long graceful coding with little hearts above the I's when you get distracted.
Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?
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Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...
We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.
This is why I see a virus or trojan as a better way to go about it than a direct hack. Then you don't have to hack each nanite, you just have to get the swarm infected and let things take their course. If you were going to do the hack, you'd need to try and hack the nanites as a cloud server, rather than as individual processors. Basically, take all the lessons we learn from Star Trek when they play with the Borg. Use their strength (the hive mind) against them. That's the only way you'll break things loose without destroying everything.
Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened. I would state that, for instance, the attempted cyborg treatment did a good job of removing the disease, but by that point the patient had already been too badly damaged to recover. There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done. So while a complete recovery may be possible for early stages of CFD once a cure is found, those who are in the later stages, especially the final stages, are likely unrecoverable.
Hmm, something to take out a large number of connected matrix nodes, while capable of fighting off a massive number of counterattacking entities...
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Jormungand
;D
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If PAX is behind the CFD virus, then is it possible that Jormungand is the earlier version of what we're now facing?
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Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.
Also, what happens when a nano-intolerant individual catches CFD?
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Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.
It's been tried. High level initiate with a spirit buddy helping out, killed the patient and almost died from the drain. Then something weird happened, possibly the patient coming back to life and trying to kill the doctor and her assistant but we don't really know.
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Two things about CFD stand out to me. One, that as its nature as an artificial intelligence it can be reasoned with and "fought" that way. As the story with the Adept showed. They do say that it's not really an solution you could expect out of anywhere near most people, but it plainly worked... For the most part.
The other is that "electrokinetics" or technomancers can communicate with the PF while concious. While it did state they often end up just dieing (a better end, I'm sure many would agree) they present a special factor into this equation. Similar to what Mirikon said, I wonder what Sprites could do to them? I'd like to see a nanite try to "absorb" a sprite or anything like that. Forget TMs; the matrix may find them weird, but they still has human minds. But a sprite goes beyond that. There's free AIs, and then there's free Sprites, and the latter are even more mysterious than spirits.
I'm positive the Resonance and a Free Sprite will be major facets to solving the problems caused by CFD.
But you know? I think SYBIL will need to be dealt with before it could ever be over.
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It is like there is two brains so to speak, the basic nanite level performing its duties and adapting as necessary to complete that task and the persona which is carried along and can exert some guidance, but the question remains how much control does the persona really have?
A sort of unified individual mind/hive mind both with the same goal. Hm. Where have I heard that before?
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080425065649/stargate/images/3/31/Replicator.JPG)
(By the way, sorry for the image neatness, I'd have used Spoiler tags for space control if they were an option.)
Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened...There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done.
Much as Influenza's stronger strains which screwed up people like Woodrow Wilson and led to one of medical science's mysteries in what's come to be known as the Sleeping Sickness because their brains were so badly damaged by influenza that they couldn't hold onto consciousness.
Besides the technomancer angle already brought up, there's the EMP/HERF angle that was brought up that could be a way of slowing things down - though I think that would only be a very short term solution as both are mentioned to be able to mess up cyberware which is hooked into the body's metabolism for at least part of its energy and integration which is the same as so-far-described nanoware. Sybil has to be at least partially if not wholly dependent on 'hard' manufactured nanites.
Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?
Well, dragons definitely wouldn't cooperate and a lot of shifter difference could be due to innate physiological differences that might be impossible to duplicate even with nanites (and using those leads us back into the problem again).
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Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.
Also, what happens when a nano-intolerant individual catches CFD?
Rule 1 of magic is that you can only hit what you can see. This is especially true with direct combat spells. The reason it is so hard to target nanites with spells is that even outside of the body, they're too small to see, and inside a body, there's a whole bunch of flesh and bone hiding them.
As for a nano-intolerant individual, the nanites would break down quicker, but since CFD nanites can replicate themselves as long as the person eats, that isn't an issue. May slow the process, but otherwise not going to do anything.
I agree with Firebug that technomancers may be the key to stopping CFD, if only because they can go places and look for code where noone else can. There are many secrets in the Resonance Realms, and only technomancers can go there. It wouldn't be surprising, then, if the answer to Sybil's identity, or especially the key pieces of code that might spell the end of CFD if written into an anti-virus software, were in the Realms somewhere.
Another possibility (which would account for why CFD is seemingly unstoppable) is that Sybil (the original one) is an e-ghost of a technomancer caught in NeoNET's experiments during the whole Emergence drekstorm, and somehow retained her abilities after 'transcending'.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080425065649/stargate/images/3/31/Replicator.JPG)
*shudder* Damnit, I'd almost forgotten about those bastards! Make the Borg look cuddly in comparison.
Much as Influenza's stronger strains which screwed up people like Woodrow Wilson and led to one of medical science's mysteries in what's come to be known as the Sleeping Sickness because their brains were so badly damaged by influenza that they couldn't hold onto consciousness.
Besides the technomancer angle already brought up, there's the EMP/HERF angle that was brought up that could be a way of slowing things down - though I think that would only be a very short term solution as both are mentioned to be able to mess up cyberware which is hooked into the body's metabolism for at least part of its energy and integration which is the same as so-far-described nanoware. Sybil has to be at least partially if not wholly dependent on 'hard' manufactured nanites.
Sleeping sickness and the like are exactly what I'm thinking of. A better example may be some forms of cancer, however, especially in this case. You can try cleaning them out as much as you like, using whatever methods you can, but the damage done to that point (both by the disease and your 'cure') still remains, and you can never really get ALL the cancer.
As for EMP/HERF guns, that would only work on hard nanites. CFD nanites build hard and soft nanites from what the infected person intakes. Just from eating, the victim provides the nanites materials to make more soft nanites. If they eat sand or something (which they've been observed to do) they make more hard nanites.
Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?
Well, dragons definitely wouldn't cooperate and a lot of shifter difference could be due to innate physiological differences that might be impossible to duplicate even with nanites (and using those leads us back into the problem again).
You're both assuming that dragons and shifters can't be infected with CFD. While I suspect it would take much longer than in others, there is nothing in the information we have that says non-metahumans can't be infected with CFD. Yes, that includes nonsapient critters, such as devil rats or the common housecat. The only reason it hasn't made the jump from metahumans to others is that apparently CFD victims can control how 'infectious' they are. At this point, I think we should assume that the only ones not susceptible to CFD are nonphysical entities, such as spirits, sprites, and AIs.
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You're both assuming that dragons and shifters can't be infected with CFD. While I suspect it would take much longer than in others, there is nothing in the information we have that says non-metahumans can't be infected with CFD. Yes, that includes nonsapient critters, such as devil rats or the common housecat. The only reason it hasn't made the jump from metahumans to others is that apparently CFD victims can control how 'infectious' they are. At this point, I think we should assume that the only ones not susceptible to CFD are nonphysical entities, such as spirits, sprites, and AIs.
It's already jumped the species barrier.
Page 15 of Stolen Souls, under the headline Nanites On Animals And Paracritters, talks about CFD infection within nonmetahumans, including some paracritters. It actually notes that the infection proceeds normally in larger mammals, including increasing their intelligence. But it goes on to note that the disease has trouble infecting small mammals and non-mammals. It also has been noted to affect paracritters the same way as larger mammals, and that most infected paracritters retain their abilities post-infection.
So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.
Note this also means that any cure which works on metahumans must also work on normal animals across the board and paracritters. Otherwise, all the cure does is allow the disease time to adapt to it and reinfect metahumans.
That's also why it is that any treatment involving biochemistry is off the board, and also likely why it is EMPs are pretty much a no-go, given how many species are even more sensitive to electromagnetic fields than humans are.
Basically put, we're looking at a potential extinction event that is unrivaled in capacity to permanently screw over all life.
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So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.
Note this also means that any cure which works on metahumans must also work on normal animals across the board and paracritters. Otherwise, all the cure does is allow the disease time to adapt to it and reinfect metahumans.
That's also why it is that any treatment involving biochemistry is off the board, and also likely why it is EMPs are pretty much a no-go, given how many species are even more sensitive to electromagnetic fields than humans are.
Basically put, we're looking at a potential extinction event that is unrivaled in capacity to permanently screw over all life.
I'm glad you understand how incredibly fucking terrifying CFD is. It's no wonder Butch is practically a husk of a person after studying it for so long. However, I don't know that "it works on paracritters" is enough to say it works on dragons. Enough to not want to just write it off as impossible though.
But considering non-meta sentients like Naga and possibly Sasquatch can get Datajacks and use the matrix, while Dragons cannot, I think it can be said that dragons aren't just another paracritter.
Speaking of dragons, how do you think they're reacting to this? They may have foreseen the Insect Spirits or the Shedim because those things may have happened in the past when the mana reached a certain level. But CFD isn't like that.
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> Can’t blame you for being jealous, Pistons. At least you’ve got this advantage on dragons: they don’t react well to even benign/ helpful nanotech. They have an unusually strong immunoresponse to it, essentially. So no blue goo for them.
> Butch
So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.
Questionable at best.
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What you're missing, Novocrane, is that 'unusually strong immunoresponse' doesn't mean 'immunity to all nanoweapons' but 'need lots more to work'. And the terrifying thing with CFD is that if even a few nanites survive, they can replicate themselves. Picture cancer that is able to spread host to host like a virus, and that's what we're talking about here.
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You're assuming I've missed something, and again on how draconic 'immunoresponse' works. Note that while that's the word used, it's also 'essentially' an unusually strong immunoresponse - which isn't quite the same as just saying, "It's an immunoresponse".
I'd stick to the facts on hand, or introduce more, Mir. I may be wrong in introducing a fence to sit on while this plays out, but if so those aren't the words to paint the whole picture. ;)
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Speaking of dragons, how do you think they're reacting to this? They may have foreseen the Insect Spirits or the Shedim because those things may have happened in the past when the mana reached a certain level. But CFD isn't like that.
Well for all we know, dragons or at least a couple specific dragons can be considerd partially responsible for CFD. Celedyr, NEMA, Boston in SR Online has been hinted to all have CFD connections.
And then there's the testimony of the head case. By his account at least a faction of the personalities, including the 'original' who he called 'Sybil,' have a burning hatred for those who disassembled and butchered their kind. Firstly a megacorporation, and secondly, an entity, a traitor called only Cerberus
From Street Legends, Cerberus is the handle for Neurosis, who is also rumored to be the e-ghost of the dragon Eliohann, who was the only known dragon who had a datajack, and supposedly died in 2064 when he was caught in the Matrix during Crash 2.0. By all accounts he was/is Celedyr's right-claw dragon on all things matrix related.
From what I can gather, the R&D branch of NEOnet was capturing and dissecting matrix entities by the handful and one possible origin of CFD is those entities finding an outlet. PAX, Deus, even Morgan/Megaera and Mirage who were all MIA post 2064 could be involved.
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You're assuming I've missed something, and again on how draconic 'immunoresponse' works. Note that while that's the word used, it's also 'essentially' an unusually strong immunoresponse - which isn't quite the same as just saying, "It's an immunoresponse".
I'd stick to the facts on hand, or introduce more, Mir. I may be wrong in introducing a fence to sit on while this plays out, but if so those aren't the words to paint the whole picture. ;)
That's the thing, though. We don't have any facts to suggest that they are immune to the disease. CFD has been proven to be aggressively invasive, adaptable, and inexorable once it gets so much as a toe in the door. In fact, we don't even know what tests to roll to try and resist the initial infection. If it is true that exposure is all that is needed, then once exposed to CFD, anyone and anything can be taken over, in time. We have no facts to suggest otherwise. In all test subjects across metatype and even species, CFD has shown to be UNIVERSALLY infectious. Until we see proof that dragons cannot be infected or overwritten, we should assume that they can be, with all that entails.
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Hm. Any of the published Named Horrors have an MO similar to CFD?
:)
-k
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Speaking of dragons, how do you think they're reacting to this? They may have foreseen the Insect Spirits or the Shedim because those things may have happened in the past when the mana reached a certain level. But CFD isn't like that.
I think they're crapping their lairs. Bug spirits they foresaw, but not how fast those got unleashed. The Matrix they definitely didn't see coming. And this? I think it's sufficient to say they're panicking and wondering what new way of screwing up the world will come next.
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Only one that I know of, Karma, and that one just unwound your Pattern so that you went from incredibly intelligent to dumber than a sack of bricks. But I don't think this is the work of a Horror. Magic and tech still don't mix, and Horrors fall on the magic side of things. Now, there's always the possibility that something came from the deep darks of the Resonance Realms, but most likely this started with AIs being tortured by NeoNET.
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Rule 1 of magic is that you can only hit what you can see. This is especially true with direct combat spells. The reason it is so hard to target nanites with spells is that even outside of the body, they're too small to see
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080425065649/stargate/images/3/31/Replicator.JPG)
*shudder* Damnit, I'd almost forgotten about those bastards! Make the Borg look cuddly in comparison.
How about a mage with radar sensor implant?
Also, what is that fragger in the picture?
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Also, what is that fragger in the picture?
'
It's a replicator from StarGate SG-1.
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How about a mage with radar sensor implant?
Wouldn't solve the size problem. Outside a body, you could, with a VERY sensitive radar, perhaps pick up a 'cloud' of nanites, but we're talking about devices a few molecules in length. They range in size from .1 to 10 micrometers (.0001 to .01 millimeters). These things make RFID chips look the size of a barn door.
Also, what is that fragger in the picture?
As SlowDeck said, that is a Replicator. They are so nasty that the most advanced civilization in the universe was getting their little grey asses handed to them by these suckers. Individually, they aren't that bad. Shotguns work wonders on them (though energy weapons are less effective). The problem is their numbers. They eat everything around, and convert things like the WALLS OF YOUR SHIP into more blocks to make more replicators. They have blown up stars to try and get rid of these things. It is like taking kudzu, making it mobile, and giving it an active will to cover everything in sight.
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Drek. Still, you can always cast such anti-nanite spells on yourself. After all, it's sight OR touch, and I can' really think of a more direct physical contact than having the fraggin' things stuck inside your body.
And yeah, Replicators do sound pretty creepy.
Oh, and BTW, since I still don't have Stolen Souls, do CFD nanites show up on nanoware detectors?
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Drek. Still, you can always cast such anti-nanite spells on yourself. After all, it's sight OR touch, and I can' really think of a more direct physical contact than having the fraggin' things stuck inside your body.
The issue there is, they'd have to be "indirect" spells, because mana spells couldn't target them. Meaning they'd do collateral damage to you. And any amount of collateral damage dealt to your brain is bad, mmkay?
Alternatively, it'd be like what the book talks about. Someone tries to make an "expel all foreign objects from the body" spell. It screws up because the person has implants, but one of the posters makes a good point. Even if it did work, you'd still have millions of microscopic holes being blow through your body as they were forcibly rejected, which could cause serious damage if not simply kill you.
Suffice to say, magicing them away isn't an option.
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*lesigh* I rest my case.
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The way I see it, the solution has to be multi-tiered. Soft nanites and hard nanites respond to treatments differently, and the safety of the host (victim) is paramount. The book mentions that doing dialysis succeeds in removing most of the soft nanites in a CFD victim. It's not all, sure, but it's a lot. Also, using a massive EMP will disrupt some, if not most, of the hard nanites. So here's my proposed treatment regimen:
Place the host and treatment operation inside a Faraday cage. Perform dialysis on the host, purging many of the soft nanites in the process. Follow the dialysis with a massive EMP surge, just under the threshold of the host. This will disrupt or destroy many of the hard nanites. Perform another dialysis on the host in order to flush the disrupted nanites out of the host. This second dialysis must be done exceedingly fast, which runs the risk of destroying the host's veins and arteries by crushing them. This must be red-lined though, in order to get as many of the nanites out of the host as possible. Be aware throughout that when a host is nearly dead, the CFD seems to take over completely and get the host back on its feet. So there is a fine line between pushing the host to the edge and pushing the host over the edge.
My worry with this treatment is that there will be times when the host cannot tolerate as much treatment as other hosts, and there will be mistakes. Additionally, there is always the fear that some of the nanites might have survived. Therefore, I propose that this treatment take place every day or two over the course of a month.
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That'll likely buy time, Namikaze, but unless we deal with the nanites like a computer virus and find a way to alter their programming into something benign, we should be thinking of them like a malignant, fast-moving Cancer. Unless you can get all the cancer out, all you've done is bought the victim more time. However, I'd say that your treatment, used just prior to a hacking attempt, would prove the most useful. Weaken the nanites as much as possible, and you weaken their threat in the matrix, making viral or direct hack attempts more likely to succeed.
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It's still the most doable solution thus far. At least until we get enough data to come up with something better. Perrsonaly, I like the idea with recovering the source code from Deep Resonance. The world that discriminated against technos is saved by them... And the public will never know, the Man won't give a drek and people will STILL hate them. Because, you know, dystopia.
Also, I've got some more magic-related ideas (though I don't really think these would work and yes, I do realize that by this point I must look like I'm obsessive-compulsive):
1. Fast/Nutrition - drawing sustenance from magic. Could this deny the nanites the resources, starve them to death, so to speak?
2. Mind Probe/Alter Memory - less solution and more interesting experiment, what do you think would happen if one of those spells were used on CFD patient when one of the "passangers" is in charge?
And on a different note, what happens when a DID patient (split personality) is infected with CFD?
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I agree that the Deep Resonance should contain the solution. Unfortunately, the fasting method wouldn't work as the nanites will tell the host to eat sand and such.
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For that matter, what about a steady course of Laes cigarettes after every blackout? :-)
Or rather, doses of Laes administered by medical professionals when the CFD personality/personalities kick in.
Boom, they can't remember what they were doing...
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For that matter, what about a steady course of Laes cigarettes after every blackout? :-)
Or rather, doses of Laes administered by medical professionals when the CFD personality/personalities kick in.
Boom, they can't remember what they were doing...
I know it was mostly a joke suggestion, but I wanna analyze it. I think the nanites could prevent the Laes from affecting the patient, or worse, they may just have the memory stored in themselves and so could reimplant it. Dunno about that last part...
I agree that the Deep Resonance should contain the solution. Unfortunately, the fasting method wouldn't work as the nanites will tell the host to eat sand and such.
I don't think that'd be the issue as much as that since the body is still gaining nutrients (I suppose this depends on how the body works) they'd just use what they can from the body to build more. Unless it's literally like a whole body-affecting stasis that just allows the cells to live purely on mana instead of turning mana into nutrients... Which theoretically could work if you kept the body in such a place as to stop the PF from just controlling it and telling it to eat anything it can. But to develop that kind of spell... I dunno if it'd even be possible.
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The description of Nutrition says it allows the target to "live off pure mana".
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Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.
They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...
We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.
What is it about cybercombat that requires me to only target one thing? Considering the way wireless communication works, it seems like it would be pretty easy to load up an attack program to effect everything in signal range. A major issue here would be the rejected code from the hundreds of thousands of nanites that made their saves. To rectify that, you'd need to create an isolated network running the older matrix protocols. Not something I expect many shadowrunners to pull off, but I bet the corps could get away with it. Wouldn't help the sinless in the sprawls, but it might work.
So in short:
1. Figure out a way to get my attack program to effect everything in signal range.
2. Do it in an isolated network that won't throw rejected code back at me.
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What is it about cybercombat that requires me to only target one thing? Considering the way wireless communication works, it seems like it would be pretty easy to load up an attack program to effect everything in signal range. A major issue here would be the rejected code from the hundreds of thousands of nanites that made their saves. To rectify that, you'd need to create an isolated network running the older matrix protocols. Not something I expect many shadowrunners to pull off, but I bet the corps could get away with it. Wouldn't help the sinless in the sprawls, but it might work.
So in short:
1. Figure out a way to get my attack program to effect everything in signal range.
2. Do it in an isolated network that won't throw rejected code back at me.
The Data Spike action targets one icon. The Fork program lets you target two. Making a sort of "AoE Nuke Program" would be difficult at best and impossible at worst.
I'm not sure how exactly you would somehow force the nanites to run all the old protocols. If you put them somewhere blocked off from the matrix with this "reconstructed old matrix" running, they just won't connect to it because they won't understand it. In game terms, it'd be a null zone with no matrix coverage, but a weird sort-of-matrix that only certain things can connect to. Additionally, if it's old protocols, it might not even do anything to them. You commlink wasn't broken when you got full matrix damage in 4th, you just had to reboot I believe. So at best they'd all reboot once and it's a mass of wasted effort.
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Actually ... that's an issue that could be - should be - able to be hacked, firebug. Glaive, I think you're on to something. Simply put, you're spamming an attack against 'everything with *.XYZ address code' ... that really, honestly should be doable. It wouldn't work in the standard Matrix, because there are filters that disallow that sort of thing, but if you're isolated and you're transmitting to a very narrow parameter set - which very narrow parameter set the nanobots by definition pretty much have to share - then you should be able to transmit an en masse 'nuke' attack. And keep doing it until they're gone...
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This spam attack would probably require an army of technomancers, each backed by the max capacity of sprites they can get, all spamming the attack at once.
So, it's probably doable, but the question is if it's practically doable.
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The only thing you'd have to worry about then would be the chance of all the nanites' deaths causing some kind of biofeedback to the patient. I'm not sure it would happen but... Well, if a deck burns when it is bricked, nanites might do enough to mess up the brain they are nested in.
Though maybe it's different for soft nanites? I'm not even sure how/if they can access the matrix anyways.
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Actually ... that's an issue that could be - should be - able to be hacked, firebug. Glaive, I think you're on to something. Simply put, you're spamming an attack against 'everything with *.XYZ address code' ... that really, honestly should be doable. It wouldn't work in the standard Matrix, because there are filters that disallow that sort of thing, but if you're isolated and you're transmitting to a very narrow parameter set - which very narrow parameter set the nanobots by definition pretty much have to share - then you should be able to transmit an en masse 'nuke' attack. And keep doing it until they're gone...
I agree that this could work, though it would take some serious coding to do. As with the virus plan, it would probably be much easier to code something like this if you had access to the CFD base code. The problem with a single-prong approach is that the nanites WILL fight back, and from what we've seen, I don't think they're pushovers in matrix combat. If you can get the base code, and make both a virus and an area attack program, then you can have multiple deckers or technomancers go in, some uploading viruses, and some doing attacks. Multiple attackers, multiple angles of attack, and wear them down until they're gone. Also, if you've got the base code of CFD, then it may be possible to write an antivirus to vaccinate nanite systems, or to use at the first signs of symptoms to clear out new CFD infections before they can get going. While the physical and magical solutions are nice, this is fundamentally a matrix problem, so I think the real solutions will be found in the Matrix.
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To tie together a couple of disturbing threads from Mirikon and KarmaInferno...
What if we're looking at a Resonance Horror, rather than a magical one?
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Not a Horror. Horrors are ubernasties from the deepest darkest metaplanes. The Resonance Realms are fundamentally different, and there is no correlation between the two (otherwise we would have seen technomancers projecting into astral space by now). Now, there be something big and bad hiding in the deep dark realms? Sure. We know there are entropic sprites out there, including entropic free sprites. But all evidence points to Sybil clearly being an AI phenomenon, specifically an e-ghost phenomenon. We know the megas captured and experimented on AIs, including e-ghosts, and locked them up in places where they could be studied, and that Cerberus was one of the people in charge of those studies. At this point, Occam's Razor says Sybil and CFD are products of e-ghosts.
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To comment on the original subject title I submit:
The two major movements toward curing such/all plagues;
The revolt by the native american nations and the great ghost dance.....
The formation of the elf nations......
Both i feel were attempts to curb the effects of the matrix on their poplations.
Most other fiction writings on the subject tend to be filler and only seem to benifit the lead/main character's motivations.
Which are often pretty self serving therefore only somewhat relevant to actual gameplay. *Laughs*
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I couldn't disagree more, Fenris. The Great Ghost Dance and formation of the elf nations had nothing to do with the Matrix, as the nations formed as a result were both Matrix-connected.
The likely cure, and this is a bit of metagaming here, is to have the Resonance hold the solution. The reason why is simple: it gives the Technomancers the ability to be the "heroes" of the modern age. If there is a group of Technomancers out there - Denver Nexus, I'm looking at you - that could go into on really Deep Resonance quest to find the cure, it would be a huge shot in the arm for Technomancers everywhere. It would finally lend them a bit of legitimacy, while also confirming the fears of those who hate Technomancers. This could have the potential to really shift the power of the world, as the evidence uncovered in such a quest might implicate the corporate powers behind CFD. It would be a hell of a series of stories, and that's ultimately what we want here.
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The response was to the imerging martrix and its political implications. As well as the the upswing in astral activity...
People were becoming disenfranchised; so the response was to declare independence of sorts from the current geo-political situation. Redefining their role in the world so to speak.
I defend my comment further by showing that the NAN nations are a bit better at conservation of their natural environment, and Astral manipulation which the authors translated into an opportunity to take the lead in Matrix development (Pubelo).
Naturally the Technomancer is a major player in this scenario, I agree. But it's hard to imagine a plot to halt plagues like the Sybill virus without seeing a cause/effect across class and community divisions.
Will a player see a Technomancer from the STC as more effective than one from the UCAS, working for ARES or the other way around? You can play any character the way you want, but imagining extremes like this might give any character's motivations a running start.....
I'm still new to Shadowrun but I would really try to play that angle given the chance.
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The response was to the imerging martrix and its political implications. As well as the the upswing in astral activity...
We're getting way off the topic of finding a cure to CFD here. I'll just point out that the Great Ghost Dance had nothing to do with the emerging Matrix. It had to do with the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of native Americans, and the upswing of mana in the world. The creation of the Tir nations was a direct result of the elves wanting a place where non-humans could live peacefully - of course, power corrupts and all that. Also, many of the elves claimed that they had existed thousands of years ago (this would be in the Earthdawn era) and so they had a moral imperative to build their nations anew.
Naturally the Technomancer is a major player in this scenario, I agree. But it's hard to imagine a plot to halt plagues like the Sybill virus without seeing a cause/effect across class and community divisions.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that CFD is somehow affiliated with the NAN and the Tir?
Will a player see a Technomancer from the STC as more effective than one from the UCAS, working for ARES or the other way around? You can play any character the way you want, but imagining extremes like this might give any character's motivations a running start.....
No. First, what's the STC? Second, technomancers (or electrokinetics) are equal across all regions. Some areas might be more welcoming than others, perhaps even offering more schooling, but from a game standpoint there's no difference. From a fluff standpoint, there really isn't a tremendous difference either - a technomancer who is raised in a lab is certainly going to have problems adjusting to the real world, but that has more to do with how he/she was raised than the fact that they're a technomancer. I guess I just don't see you're point.
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Let's get unethical. Give them what they want. The tech exists to make clones, but if I remember rightly, the clone was just meat without a mind. Let the CFD provide a mind and it's good to go.
Not a cure, but may buy time to find one.
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That is a VERY intriguing strategy Trollbait. The virus wants a body, we can provide them. It might just be that we give them what they want, and they stop taking people over.
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Let's get unethical. Give them what they want. The tech exists to make clones, but if I remember rightly, the clone was just meat without a mind. Let the CFD provide a mind and it's good to go.
Not a cure, but may buy time to find one.
OOooh! And you can bargain with the CFD infected clones to become CFD hunters! Who better to know how to detect and destroy the virus than the virii themselves? They could hunt their rogue brethren down and give them a choice - new body or deletion. After all, if you're willing to be >really< unethical, you can always apply enough energy to a quarantined host body until the virus goes away.
There's no way that can go wrong, I'm sure.
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Nah, the CDF clones get made into cyber zombies and sent out to hunt Shedim. Worth it for the giggles.
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Let's get unethical. Give them what they want. The tech exists to make clones, but if I remember rightly, the clone was just meat without a mind. Let the CFD provide a mind and it's good to go.
Not a cure, but may buy time to find one.
I believe it is peace in our time.
--Neville Chamberlain
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I defend my comment further by showing that the NAN nations are a bit better at conservation of their natural environment, and Astral manipulation which the authors translated into an opportunity to take the lead in Matrix development (Pubelo).
Sorry, I'm seeing zero correlation between those factors. I may be a classist, but just because the PCC aren't the same type of serfdoms as the megacorps doesn't mean that they're suddenly doing all the right things.
Also, many of the elves claimed that they had existed thousands of years ago (this would be in the Earthdawn era) and so they had a moral imperative to build their nations anew.
Of course, nothing like manifest destiny could possibly be at play there.
Also: ninja'd by Mirikon.
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I was digging through Parazoology 2 and found this sitting on pg 37:
Nanoplasmosis
This unusual protozoan infects nanosystems, destroying the nanites as if it were a competing species. This protozoan not only feeds off the organic compounds found in soft nanites, but it has the ability to resonate a field that jams individual nanites. Nanoplasmosis degrades nanites faster by any remaining Power rating it has after a disease Resistance Test. If the Power is reduced to 0, one nanosystem is still permanently reduced by 1. If an infected subject has a nanohive, the protozoans infiltrate the system, preventing the creation of new nanites. The going hypothesis is that the protozoan Awakened within a netzumi and is transmitted through fecal matter.
Is it just me or does this seem like a perfect way to cure CFD?
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To cure it, no, since i dont see how you could restore the damages done to the brain. But it can be a good way to stop the nanite infection, with limited damages if used on early stages. Or maybe the nanites will just adapt. And then, we are screwed.
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Or maybe the nanites will just adapt. And then, we are screwed.
It's not like these are The Borg. As to Nanoplasmosis, that does sound like a cure - though like many cures, it can't repair damage already done so there are going to be a lot of people with many small scars.
Given that this sounds like a hard nanite plague so far, I'm still not sure why an EMP couldn't wipe out most or all of a host's current sybil-infected nanite population.
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Or maybe the nanites will just adapt. And then, we are screwed.
It's not like these are The Borg. As to Nanoplasmosis, that does sound like a cure - though like many cures, it can't repair damage already done so there are going to be a lot of people with many small scars.
Given that this sounds like a hard nanite plague so far, I'm still not sure why an EMP couldn't wipe out most or all of a host's current sybil-infected nanite population.
Oh, it probably could. But given that you have millions of frying electronics right next to an organ that functions with electric currents, either the electrical discharges would damage the brain or the heat from all those microcircuits frying would. (Or both!) While it might work, arguably the cure in this case is worse than the disease.
Brain damage to the host kinda defeats the purpose of "curing" the victims.
-Ariketh
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Fairly sure the nanites infected with CFD are both hard and soft, or the events of Stolen Souls might have been slightly different.
As for Nanoplasmosis, yep! Sure sounds like a cure; the question is, can it be administered as a precaution?
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I figure it could be used as a vaccine, provided people aren't irrationally squicked by the thought of the same kind of parasite that has possible ties to suicidal thoughts, encephalitis, and other neurological and physiological disorders. Also, that a form of toxoplasmosis makes rodents seek out cats to be devoured and spread the protozoan. Imagine if the nanoplasmosis started doing that for some kind of Emergent analog?
Finally, it might be easy to spread! It appears that a very large number of the human population has some form of toxoplasmosis in their system. Nanoplasmosis, deployed along similar vectors, could subtly prevent CFD expansion.
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I figure it could be used as a vaccine, provided people aren't irrationally squicked by the thought of the same kind of parasite that has possible ties to suicidal thoughts, encephalitis, and other neurological and physiological disorders. Also, that a form of toxoplasmosis makes rodents seek out cats to be devoured and spread the protozoan. Imagine if the nanoplasmosis started doing that for some kind of Emergent analog?
Finally, it might be easy to spread! It appears that a very large number of the human population has some form of toxoplasmosis in their system. Nanoplasmosis, deployed along similar vectors, could subtly prevent CFD expansion.
Now I want a run focused on starting worldwide epidemic of nanoplasmosis. Or at least sprawlwide.