[OneofSorrow]

Play them up as cantankerous or trying to get as much as they can while giving as little as possible - in fact, I encourage it - but if they're outright hateful and vengeful against you, you can't even properly roleplay most Magicians.

Good point, I'll remember that.  Thank you for the advice.  That is some advice one of my other GM should listen to however cause he is one of the reasons I play a adept and not a mage myself. 

[Mirikon]

Also, unlike you, I have enough foresight to see where things can lead.

What a rude way to slide down the slipperiest slope possible and act like the absolute most power-gamey result is the only outcome.

*shrugs* I suppose I could have dressed it up with some kittens or flowers or something, but if I see a spade, I call it a spade. As for slippery slope, first, you're using it wrong. Slippery slope is when you say if X then Y will definitely occur ("We've got to stop them from banning pornography. Once they start banning one form of literature, they will never stop. Next thing you know, they will be burning all the books!"), without going through a logical progression. This is not that. This is saying "Look what happens when you mix bleach and ammonia in Chemistry class!" If you are looking at a potential ruling and say "Well, with a low-mid force focus, this is clearly no different from a spirit" that's like saying "Well, we have several servers for the Sims, so I'm sure they'll never be enough people online at once to crash everything." It is called basic awareness of the consequences of your ruling. It is the reason there are libraries filled with case law, and people whose only job is to go researching through all that case law for precedence. You don't plan for 'Meh, good enough'. You don't prepare against, "Maybe it'll just be a couple goblins". That is how broken drek gets into games, and utterly destroys things. Oh sure, it might not be a problem this game, but what about the next? What about when someone else wants the toy, is built a bit differently, and (rightly) points out that since 2+2=4 in the other game, it can't be 3 now, even though their character is more powerful than the one the ruling was originally made for. That is exactly what 'foresight' means. You look ahead, see where things can go. Because sure, on the face of it a ruling might not be that bad, but if you run your game without thought to precedence, then things can (and usually will) spiral out of control.

OneofSorrow, yeah, spirits don't generally hate being summoned, unless you have a history of being a dick to spirits. It is important to note that most shamanic and possession traditions tend to place a strong emphasis on being respectful to spirits, of all kinds. Picture you're heading out of the building, and someone asks you to drop some mail in the mailbox on the way out for them. If they're someone you generally get along with, no problem. If they're that rat bastard from down the hall who always plays his music too loud when you're trying to sleep, however...

[SlowDeck]

The sad part is, the book example actually happens in real life far more often than the chemistry example does (mainly because most students don't know to try it until they're educated enough not to do it). And, yes, I do know groups that followed that exact progression in how they viewed things. There's also that one famous historical example from the late 1930s to early 1940s... So, the book one would actually be a better example of a true logical progression since it actually happens far too often.

And, to be honest, it would help if you had posted a logical progression; you didn't. You just assumed that the players would begin abusing it massively right off the bat. Which, generally, typically only happens with players who abuse everything right off the bat and would have been a source of a complaint thread on here. Even the most famous abuses that DnD has suffered in its roleplaying rules were things that players didn't bother to abuse immediately, but only started abusing later when they became familiar with the rules and pondered about the implications of certain combinations; and, even then, often that was also a gradual progression. There is no reason to think this will become abused immediately or that it cannot be easily controlled.

Instead of just assuming the player is doing this just to have something to abuse, a simple warning about watching it for abuse potential would have sufficed. Especially since I can name a couple dozen things that are legal by core rules that are massively more abusive if used (did you know you can mount a scope on an assault cannon and turn it into a sniper rifle capable of seriously injuring even some dragons?).

[Ryo]

Honestly Mirikon, the sword is the least broken thing involved in that ridiculous list of things that hypothetical character did. It's also completely irrelevant to the actual discussion, which is this specific character wanting to build his specific fancy weapon. It's a one of a kind thing only he has, with a truly absurd investment cost, not only in terms of nuyen, but also time, energy and roleplaying.

No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap. You're already using possession spirits. It'd be easier, cheaper, and have higher numbers to get an Ally spirit that inhabits your katana, which would also have more fancy abilities like shooting fireballs, causing confusion and glitches in enemies, and you know, having its own initiative passes.

[prismite]

No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap.

Hmm. You do make an excellent point. That actually helps reinforce my initial thought process of how I would "enchant" the weapon based on the PC's actions. If he is willing to put that much footwork into a project I'd give him at least a small boost.

But still, very good point.

[Tenlaar]

No power-gaming munchkin would bother with all that crap.

No kidding, especially since just the price of the Primal Elements he needs is enough to build a castle in the middle of Seattle and buy a drone army to defend it.

[OneofSorrow]

At one point he had acquired enough money to BUY at least one of them but refused stating he rather roleplay for it.  Although in the up and coming campaign I mentioned their being a mana storm in the area and both him and one of his comrades eyes kind of lit up.  "Will their be primal air."  They both said in unison.  I actually pulled out a pair of percent dice and rolled them....100% chance.  So now these two bozo are going to go off mission to go storm hunting.  I plan to dock them street cred and give them a point of notoriety if they do that for leaving the target they are suppose to guard to go storm chasing, that'll be this Sunday, but now i have to figure what an air weapon will do.

[Tenlaar]

How OP would something like removing, say, 2 defense dice on the target of the weapon be?  The air element makes it shimmer and strike a bit faster than normal or something, It wouldn't be a "guaranteed" hit reduction on the defense test (by the 3 dice to 1 hit rule), but it would give a nice chance of it.

Of course there is also lightning's dice pool and initiative reducing effects to play with.

[Ryo]

How OP would something like removing, say, 2 defense dice on the target of the weapon be?  The air element makes it shimmer and strike a bit faster than normal or something, It wouldn't be a "guaranteed" hit reduction on the defense test (by the 3 dice to 1 hit rule), but it would give a nice chance of it.

Of course there is also lightning's dice pool and initiative reducing effects to play with.

For that effect, call it a Reach bonus to incorporate existing rules.

But I say If your players are going to make multiple Primal Element weapons, keep the effects consistent. Since you've decided that Fire just adds the fire element to the weapon, you should do the same for primal Air. I've always liked using the Blast element from Street Magic as the wind element.

If you don't have Street Magic from 4th edition, blast makes it easier to knock down targets and destroy objects. Add the Force of the weapon focus to the damage dealt for determining Knockdown, and objects with a Structure rating less than the Force may be knocked over, shattered, shredded or otherwise swept away with ease.