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Run & Gun - Errata? Missing Rules

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Ursus Maior

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« on: <05-20-14/1147:21> »
I got a question on the newly (?) released Run & Gun weapon modifications. Finally I can buy an UGL or under barrel flamethrower (yikes!) again. But what are the stats? Accuracy etc. are no-where to be found. I don't think we're supposed to use the main weapons accuracy. That would instantly make the Ares Alpha obsolete.

Anyone anything?
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kuromi

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« Reply #1 on: <05-20-14/1205:40> »
I'd say check the Errata board of this site, but that question has been posed there already with no official answer. Honestly, I'd just copy the stats for the grenade launcher the H-K XM-30/Ares Alpha has, as opposed to the underbarrel GL the AK-98 has. At frakking 3500 nuyen, it should be using the better grenade launcher stats, given the AK-98's GL is technically only 300, given the price diff between the AK-97 and AK-98.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #2 on: <05-20-14/1206:16> »
Given what is in the table on page 54, I think the damage and accuracy stats are the same as the normal weapons for the underbarrel chainsaw and flamethrower; the table seems to indicate you are picking one of them and modifying them to fit under a barrel. By the text for the grapple gun, it may be a modified grapple gun from the core rulebook. For the grenade launcher, I would just use the Ares Alpha and Ares HVAR as examples for its stats.

They really could use more info, though.
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Ursus Maior

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« Reply #3 on: <05-20-14/1206:58> »
Yes, I would have expected 350 nuyen, not 3,500!
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kuromi

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« Reply #4 on: <05-20-14/1217:07> »
Actually, given 3500 is even more than the Ares Antioch-2, I could even see the argument for it really being a modified version of the Antioch-2 and use the stats for that, although the only difference between that and the Alpha's GL is the Antioch's ammo is 8(m), while the Alpha's is 6(c). I'm not sure which would actually be better, 2 extra grenades, or the ability to reload it quicker/switch to a clip of different micro-grenades. I guess the 6(c), because if you've already fired off 6 grenades, and still need more, you prolly have other things to worry about.

Ursus Maior

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« Reply #5 on: <05-21-14/0419:08> »
Plus clips enable you to store diffrent mixes of clips. A magazine forces you to either shoot it empty or not use the full capacity, before you can swith ammunition types.

There is a reason why internal box magazines are no longer used in assault rifles, having been superseded by detachable magazines. Although SR got the terminology wrong, calling detachable magazines clips. But who cares?
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #6 on: <05-21-14/0520:33> »
I'll add another vote to it needed a lot more work.

From memory, this is something of an inversion here. I remember in one edition there was an argument that was to the effect, people call them clips, they're not clips, they're magazines. A strip is an actual piece of metal, not a magazine.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <05-21-14/0658:40> »
The advantage of an underbarrel construction is not having to drag two weapons with you, and being able to fire either easily (rather than having to Ready Weapons) so I'd assume it's the same as the other guns (Alpha, AK, HK) use.
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kuromi

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« Reply #8 on: <05-21-14/0837:11> »
Well, the Alpha/XM30 ones are the same: accuracy 4, SS, 6(c). Even though both are on weapons with integral smartgun systems, only the Alpha's does the 4(6) accuracy thing to reflect this, but it could probably be assumed that the XM-30's grenade launcher gets the same bonuses. The AK-98's underbarrel GL is accuracy 3, SS, 6(m).

Like I said, it can be inferred from the price difference between the AK-97 and 98 (950 vs 1250) that the AK's grenade launcher is 300. So, if I'm going to be paying 3200 extra, it had better be using the better stats of the Alpha/XM-30 grenade launcher.

And yes, having one weapon fill the role of 2 is convenient, but 3500 still a pretty steep frakkin price. Like there aren't that many ARs it would be worth it on. Obviously not the AK-97, when you can get the 98 for 300 more. Definitely not the Colt M-23 or the FN HAR, because they're worse assault rifles than the Alpha, and if you can afford the price of one of those plus the underbarrel GL, there is no reason to not get the Alpha which would be at least a thousand cheaper. Same for the HVAR- since 5E doesn't have the special "high velocity weapon" rules, its similarly pointless to get it and a underbarrel GL- it does less damage than an Alpha. Yeah, it has 4 points of recoil compensation, but that's with a shock pad, and it can take no barrel mods, so no gas vents either. Compare that to an Alpha, which has a nebulous "special chamber design" that provides 2 points of recoil comp already, and adding a gas vent 3 and shock pad takes that to 6. The Alpha has 8 less bullets than an HVAR, but otherwise is the superior weapon without the special HV rules giving the HVAR some advantage. So doing the HVAR/underbarrel GL is just throwing your money away. It MIGHT be acceptable on a Raiden for that price.

( I don't count the Optimum, because it already has a built in underbarrel shotgun. There's already another thread going on about what integral means for accessories/mods and whether that underbarrel slot is actually free, so any comments about that should probably be directed there).

Of course, since it goes on any "rifle-sized weapon" or better, it would behoove you to put it on something like an EBR, to widen its already multi-role capability. I guess the price isn't too steep if you put the GL on something like that. Putting it on an LMG/MMG/HMG prevents you from using a gyro mount or tripod, so it might not be wise to use it with those.

All in all, I think it goes perfectly with the EBR, or heck, even an assault cannon, since the GL is not ridiculously more expensive than those. However, even though its like being able to carry an antioch-2 and another weapon at once, I just don't think the price tag is worth it for any of the actual assault rifles since the AK-98 and Alpha are so much cheaper and readily available solutions. You could also put it on a shotgun, but I find it a little ridiculous the "secondary" weapon would cost about thrice the primary in that case.


Kincaid

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« Reply #9 on: <05-21-14/0908:12> »
I'm just using the stats from the Alpha's GL for now--it's the stat line that 99% of people know, so it seemed simplest.  I don't honestly see the underbarrel flamethrower being picked all that often, but I'd probably base damage/accuracy off of the one in Gun H(e)aven 3.

Keep in mind that your underbarrel grenade launcher can be switched from weapon to weapon using the rules on page 51, which may explain some of its comparatively high cost.
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