[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Seriously, dude, I use some examples to show that "the majority of people in general are X" doesn't equate to "the majority of shadowrunners are X", and you pull this? I even stated what I actually believe in a post, and you still got it wrong.

Really?  You didn't give a single example, and what I wrote is precisely what you stated.  Here, let me remove the 'strawmanning' part:

ZeConster believes that since shadowrunners are presumed in-game to start out without a SIN, they by default most likely never had one.

Now you:

Never having had a SIN is the default.

Where, exactly, did I get it wrong?
In any case. The debate about whether or not a street kid can get the cash is actually fairly immaterial; a street kid with determination could get the cash.  My statement stands, and apparently I need to clarify it, so:

In order for a character to never have had a SIN, they need to have been one of three things: a streeter, a waaay-back-to-the-woods tribal, or a second-generation runner.

  Any other origin, any other origin, puts the character firmly in the 'originally had a SIN' list.  And even if you were a streeter, if you got caught you got assigned a SIN, so several of those 'street rats' I listed above might have had one assigned at some point.

Having had, and burned, a SIN is the default if you're not playing the streeter/tribal/2nd Gen runner.

[emsquared]

I just don't see normal chargen as supposed to be creating prime runners who have been in the game for a long time.  How long does it take you to earn 450k, after your normal living/ammo/whatever expenses, at your table?

Who says they paid for it? The money and resources you use to generate your character are just an abstraction of whatever the background of the PC is.

That's why I'm saying - there are no defaults with shadowrunners.  Every runner is unique, at least in their details.

Yeah, this is probably where this whole thing should be left at.

[ZeConster]

Seriously, dude, I use some examples to show that "the majority of people in general are X" doesn't equate to "the majority of shadowrunners are X", and you pull this? I even stated what I actually believe in a post, and you still got it wrong.

Really?  You didn't give a single example

Really? So I guess I didn't actually say this?

The vast majority of people are citizens of somewhere;

The vast majority of people are also mundane, don't have cyberdecks, and don't have 'ware worth more than 25k, let alone 100k. There's a big difference between the average person and the average shadowrunner.

That was me, giving examples of ways in which shadowrunners differ from the average person, to illustrate that using the general population as a yardstick to measure runners by doesn't necessarily work.

and what I wrote is precisely what you stated.  Here, let me remove the 'strawmanning' part:

ZeConster believes that since shadowrunners are presumed in-game to start out without a SIN, they by default most likely never had one.

Now you:

Never having had a SIN is the default.

Where, exactly, did I get it wrong?

Gee, lessee. Maybe it's because I literally said this:

ZeConster, why do you think never having had a SIN is the default?

Because the majority of shadowrunners are SINless (so the default is "you don't have a SIN"), and the majority of the SINless are SINless because they never had a SIN to begin with (so the default is ", because you never had one to begin with")?

There's the actual reason I believe the 'default' for SINless runners is "they never had a SIN", and it's even in the same post in which I posted the thing you went on to claim was the reason. So I'd imagine the part where you went wrong is when you somehow decided that when I answered the following question:

why do you think never having had a SIN is the default?

That wasn't actually me saying why I think never having had a SIN is the default.



Admittedly, you can argue that since the average SINless shadowrunner still differs greatly from the average SINless person, the same yardstick issue occurs with my assumption - and to a lesser degree than with "average person in general", it indeed does, but that line of reasoning only gets you as far as Namikaze's viewpoint: "there is no default".

[Namikaze]

Admittedly, you can argue that since the average SINless shadowrunner still differs greatly from the average SINless person, the same yardstick issue occurs with my assumption - and to a lesser degree than with "average person in general", it indeed does, but that line of reasoning only gets you as far as Namikaze's viewpoint: "there is no default".

Which is why there's no point to this argument.  No need to carry it on.

[Michael Chandra]

My own 140k street sam is from a CCZ gang, because he only has Used ware it's a simple explanation: Got it out of bodies.

There's also the possibilities of having worked for a low corp for a while (with either a fake SIN or they didn't care at all) which had you implanted with some stuff, a mob dude rewarding you for favors done, stuff falling off a truck or just outright stealing it from a warehouse, all that kinda stuff. So there's always possible explanations as to what the gear came from without having spent tons of cash on them.

[Senko]

Hmmm I now have the image of someone with cyberware that literally fell off the back of a truck and crushed some body parts which where replaced with said Cyberware (or part thereof) as a way of paying them off for the injury.

[Michael Chandra]

"You want that entire gang to try to flip this truck?! Perform the damn surgery so we can get out of here!"