[ZeConster]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. Never having had a SIN is the default, simply because you need to add something to your background to justify having had one. The majority of shadowrunners didn't choose the shadows.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. Never having had a SIN is the default, simply because you need to add something to your background to justify having had one. The majority of shadowrunners didn't choose the shadows.

ZeConster, why do you think never having had a SIN is the default? 

A SIN is issued to a person at birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances) for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To the system, these people don’t exist.

Issuing a SINA SIN is issued by a country or extraterritorial corporation (AA or AAA rating) at the time a person becomes a citizen. This is generally when a person is born “legally” in that country somewhere—a hospital, clinic, or maybe even at home with the assistance of a Renraku DulaDroneTM.

The vast majority of people are citizens of somewhere; the children of all citizens are given one at birth.  In fact, this is so widespread that being SINless is actually illegal, far more illegal than failing to broadcast your commlink - in fact, broadcasting your commlink means broadcasting your SIN.  Now, while I agree with you that the majority of shadowrunners don't choose the shadows and are SINless - because in order to survive doing illegal things for money, you really need to hide that SIN - that means the majority of shadowrunners either a) never existed in the system, i.e. had parents who were SINless/not citizens of anywhere (corporate or national), or b) had to run away from their previous (SINned!!) existence for some reason, usually about a half a step ahead of the high-velocity lead.

What, in all of this, makes you think that 'never having had a SIN' is the default??

[Lethal Joke]

Because that's the vast majority of people. Not the vast majority of shadowrunners. There's a reason it's a negative quality, not a default. I imagine there is a significant subset of SINners, but the majority will always be SINless.

Huh. SINners and SINless. Cute.

[Namikaze]

Here's the thing: unless there is a specific reason - to wit, your mother and father both didn't have a SIN - when you're born, you're issued a SIN.  This isn't 'default' for character backgrounds; this is default for the shadowrun world.

And how many of those with SINs become shadowrunners?  Not many.  So for the shadowrun game, the default is no SIN at game start.  Whether that no SIN is the result of having lost a SIN somehow, burned a SIN somehow, or never being issued a SIN in the first place...  that's irrelevant and that's my point.  There's no default character background for shadowrunners.

Hell, I've known players to make really convoluted stories.  "I was born without a SIN, applied for a SIN and got it, then lost it again in the Crash."  So again, my point is that there is no "default" for shadowrunner backgrounds.

[ZeConster]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. Never having had a SIN is the default, simply because you need to add something to your background to justify having had one. The majority of shadowrunners didn't choose the shadows.

ZeConster, why do you think never having had a SIN is the default?

Because the majority of shadowrunners are SINless (so the default is "you don't have a SIN"), and the majority of the SINless are SINless because they never had a SIN to begin with (so the default is ", because you never had one to begin with")?

The vast majority of people are citizens of somewhere;

The vast majority of people are also mundane, don't have cyberdecks, and don't have 'ware worth more than 25k, let alone 100k. There's a big difference between the average person and the average shadowrunner.

Also, about your earlier post: using your own characters as a yardstick doesn't make for a proper argument. I have 3 characters (one in 4th, one for 5th Missions, and one to fill out an oline group for 5th), and 2 of them are full-fledged SINners (4th edition: paranormal pet detective with Public Awareness 10; 5th Missions: suspended mountie). That doesn't mean anything beyond me liking the flavor that comes with having a real SIN, though.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I suspect we're taking at cross purposes, so I'll try to clarify what I'm seeing.
ZeConster believes that since shadowrunners (each one individually powerfully magical, highly skilled, and/or with gear, implanted or not, valued above a hundred thousand nuyen) are presumed in-game to start out without a SIN, they by default most likely never had one.

Namikaze agrees that shadowrunners start the game without a SIN by default, unless they take the Negative Quality.  He doesn't care about what happened before game start, and claims it to be irrelevant.

Lethal Joke is claiming ... not sure.  That shadowrunners start the game without a SIN by default, unless they take the Negative Quality.  I think.
All right.  I never claimed that shadowrunners defaulted to starting the game with a SIN; I agree that they by default start without one, unless they take the Negative Quality.  This has never been in question.

My debate with ZeConster is what Namikaze claims is irrelevant - but which is exactly why this thread started, to wit "Can I RP out a character getting a SIN burned, so he can buy off the Negative Quality of having one?"  My answer was 'yes', and that most other characters who had not been second-generation runners or born and grew up in the Barrens are assumed to have done this, so what SlowDeck is simply playing out something that many, if not most, characters have already undergone.

So the issue lies in 'where do most shadowrunners come from?'  Not in whether or not 'most shadowrunners' start the game with or without a SIN; clearly, to start with a legal SIN one must take a Negative Quality.

My position is that out of the 7 billion people on the planet, and the 3+ million people in the Seattle Metroplex, most of them - 6.8 million at least in Seattle, unless you think that more than 200,000 or so people live in the Barrens, equating to 3% of the population - are in possession of a legal SIN, whether that's national, corporate, or criminal doesn't matter.

I believe that 99% of those who are SINless are scrabbling for enough food to keep healthy, enough shelter to keep dry, enough clothing to keep warm; the other 2000 people are shadow-denizens of various sorts, from successful ones to those just starting out.

I further believe that of those 198,000 non-already-shadowrunning people, few of them are going to be able to acquire literally tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of nuyen in order to gain the type of implants or tech necessary to become a standard starting shadowrun character.

I believe that the people who are more likely to have acquired that sort of gear - or education, if you're talking high skills - are people who are in the system, who can join the armed forces, or be part of a corporation, or go to college.  The magic types have it 'easier' in this regard; magic has no respect for persons, as the saying goes, and a kickass adept can get her training on the street as easy (or easier!!) than in a corporate facility.  When it comes to those archetypes who require money, though, it isn't likely to come from the hands of the poor and downtrodden.

So I believe that, from logical progression and like most of the characters in Street Legends, Street Legends Supplemental, and 10 Jackpointers, the majority of people who become shadowrunners have had a valid SIN, whatever its source, before entering the shadows and burning it.

ZeConster disagrees, which is fine.  He believes that most shadowrunners never had a SIN in the first place.  I think that's utterly wrong, and from analysis of the following, my supposition of how that happens - street kid/ganger, 2nd Gen shadowrunner, or tribal - pretty much seems to be borne out. 

The idea that most shadowrunners never had a SIN, and didn't have to burn one as they entered the shadows seems to me to be to be completely ludicrous.  Any background that involves being employed by a corp is going to give you a SIN; any background that involves entering the armed forces is going to give you a SIN.  But if in ZeConster's world (or the world of whomever is reading this) you can work for a large corporation or military and get tens of thousands of nuyen worth of materiel implanted in you without them keeping tabs on you by way of a SIN ... more power to you.  Just not in my game, and according to everything I'm able to read, not in the standard Shadowrun world.
Unknown/Null: Agent (Because, well, Agent. Is currently a SINner.), Serrin Shamandar/Ire (no data, but DID go SINner for a while.), Hannibelle (inherited her father's cyberdeck when he's killed in gang crossfire, but buried her past thoroughly - might be a corp kid, might be a 2nd Gen shadowrunner), Hans Brackhaus (Null, shared ID), Street Rage (no info, but probably SINless street/ganger kid), The Smiling Bandit (wiped his past, but most likely an Original SINner, seems college educated), Ecotope (well-scrubbed past, but possibly Austrian national), Lei Kung (well-scrubbed past, but standard citizen is strongly implied), Orbital DK (scrubbed past, but she's in orbit - so very probably a SINner in the past)

Original/Hired SINner: Agent (probably), Cayman (standard citizen), Elijah (corp kid), Haze (employed by Telestrian*), Mika (standard citizen), Rigger X (corp kid), Sticks (strongly implied - geeky kid pretending to be a shadowrunner), Thorn (standard citizen), Winterhawk (standard citizen), Jonathan Blake (corporate fixer), Kia (corp brat), Yankee (standard citizen), Martin de Vries (standard citizen), Nadja Daviar (might've been street kid, but she became a SINner when she started interpreting for the Big D), Rael Whiteoak (standard/corp citizen), Cerberus (Dragon, corporate citizen), Hestaby (Great Dragon, national citizen), Lofwyr (Great Dragon, corporate citizen), Lugh Surehand (Immortal Elf, national citizen), Villiers & Lanier (Dynamic Corporate Duo of citizens), Hard Exit (corporate kid), Kane (standard citizen), Mihoshi Oni (V, soldier), Buttercup (free spirit, corporate citizen), Damien Knight (standard citizen, now corporate), Anne Ravenheart (possibly standard citizen, but definitely corporate), Baka Dabora (corp kid), Kay St. Irregular (standard citizen), Turbo Bunny (standard citizen)

Criminal SINner: Ma'fan (caught as a kid), Haze (caught as a kid*), Ecotope (got caught)

SINless: Akuchi (lawless area), Haze (Ganger kid), Kellan Colt (2nd Gen Runner), Marcos (ganger), Puck (otaku, which means street orphan at best), Tommy Talon (street kid), Bull MacCallister (street kid), Tess Van Hama (2nd Gen Runner), Mihoshi Oni (I-IV, VI, street kids), Slamm-O! (2nd Gen Runner), Harlequin (Immortal Elf, doesn't give two shits), Lyran (street kid and ganger), Man-Of-Many-Names (tribal), Riser (street kid)

[Namikaze]

To clarify, I'm not saying that your origin isn't important.  I'm saying that your statement of:

In essence, unless their background is specific enough to state, 'I never had a SIN', by default they had a SIN.

I disagree that this should always be the assumption.  I'm saying that this whole argument is silly, actually.  For what it's worth, Wyrm, I agree with you.  When I'm sitting with my players helping them make a character, I often ask them about their SIN.  Because it is important to the character origin story.  I also refuse to allow characters with skills that don't match their backgrounds, which is a sticking point for one of my players.  I think the use of the term default may have skewed the conversation due to misunderstanding.  I know what you're talking about, Wyrm, and as I said I agree.  What I'm also saying is that one should never make assumptions, especially about shadowrunners.

[ZeConster]

ZeConster believes that since shadowrunners (each one individually powerfully magical, highly skilled, and/or with gear, implanted or not, valued above a hundred thousand nuyen) are presumed in-game to start out without a SIN, they by default most likely never had one.

Wyrm believes strawmanning is the right approach when you disagree with someone - and even if this were a debate instead of a discussion, strawmanning is still bad.
Seriously, dude, I use some examples to show that "the majority of people in general are X" doesn't equate to "the majority of shadowrunners are X", and you pull this? I even stated what I actually believe in a post, and you still got it wrong.

[emsquared]

Well, since this thread is already massively derailed, I figure I'd weigh in; the default IMO is that a PC never had a SIN. As this thread points out, it's really hard to get rid of one, and the fluff suggests that most Runners don't choose the life - specific over-rides the general (that everyone is assigned a SIN at birth) if you will. There's plenty of conceivable situations where a facility isn't going to hand out a SIN, especially  those birthed in Barrens - which is a lot.

Ultimately it comes down to this: the assumption for Runners is obviously that they're SINless starting play, this is obvious because of the NQ. And proceeding from there with Occam's Razor tells me that they never had one unless they specifically mention it, because burning one is much much MUCH more complex. Maybe that's just the scientist in me.

[Tenlaar]

And proceeding from there with Occam's Razor tells me that they never had one unless they specifically mention it, because burning one is much much MUCH more complex. Maybe that's just the scientist in me.

I think that Wyrm has a valid point on this as far as any decker, rigger, or heavily cybered character goes.  How do you explain a SINless barrens rat ending up with 450k or 275k worth of stuff at the start of play?  The SINless, by default, are the downtrodden poor.

Unless the character is starting at 50 years old and has already been a top-notch shadowrunner for 30 of them...

[Michael Chandra]

The mob.

[SirValeq]

There are lots of less than legal jobs that pay well, even in our world. Illegal sports come to mind - your rigger could earn the cash by racing, your sam could be a no-rules pit fighter etc.

[emsquared]

How do you explain a SINless barrens rat ending up with 450k or 275k worth of stuff at the start of play?  The SINless, by default, are the downtrodden poor.

Yeah, this doesn't hold water, in my mind. For the reason(s) SirValeq mentions.

There are lots of less than legal jobs that pay well, even in our world. Illegal sports come to mind - your rigger could earn the cash by racing, your sam could be a no-rules pit fighter etc.

If you think there's no jobs or money in the Barrens, you're fooling yourself. Runner's are people with certain, usually lucrative, sets of skills. It's a much simpler logical step that they 1.) earned the money illegitimately, rather than that they 1.) earned the money legitimately and then 2.) decided that despite that lucrative legitimate earning, they wanted to go to a life of crime, and then 3.) went through the extremely challenging process of disappearing their former life and 4.) were successful.

Yeah, no.

[Tenlaar]

I just don't see normal chargen as supposed to be creating prime runners who have been in the game for a long time.  How long does it take you to earn 450k, after your normal living/ammo/whatever expenses, at your table?

Of course there are jobs and money in the barrens, I never said anything contrary to that.  But you are talking MASSIVE sums of money.

[Namikaze]

If you think there's no jobs or money in the Barrens, you're fooling yourself. Runner's are people with certain, usually lucrative, sets of skills. It's a much simpler logical step that they 1.) earned the money illegitimately, rather than that they 1.) earned the money legitimately and then 2.) decided that despite that lucrative legitimate earning, they wanted to go to a life of crime, and then 3.) went through the extremely challenging process of disappearing their former life and 4.) were successful.

Yeah, no.

I'll interject a step in your description of a legitimate person turned runner.

• earned the money legitimately
• decided that despite that lucrative legitimate earning, they wanted to go to a life of crime
• - Alternative: they were forced into a life of crime due to unspecified circumstances
• went through the extremely challenging process of disappearing their former life
• - Alternative: had their old life erased in any number of ways
• were successful.

I just don't see normal chargen as supposed to be creating prime runners who have been in the game for a long time.  How long does it take you to earn 450k, after your normal living/ammo/whatever expenses, at your table?

Of course there are jobs and money in the barrens, I never said anything contrary to that.  But you are talking MASSIVE sums of money.

This is where the GM and the player need to work together in order to make sense of it all.  Perhaps the runner-to-be was experimented on by an unscrupulous street doctor.  Perhaps the runner earned the equipment as payment for services rendered.  Perhaps they stole the gear.

That's why I'm saying - there are no defaults with shadowrunners.  Every runner is unique, at least in their details.