[Longshot23]

I was thinking about some stuff, and one concept led to another . . .

Are shedim [supposed to be] the same as tzitzimine?

[Namikaze]

What is a tzitzimine?  You aren't referring to the tzimisce vampires from World of Darkness, are you?

[Sendaz]

I suspect the tzitzimine were more a generic term used by the ancients for the Horrors to come than any particular brand of beastie as they were foretold to come through and scour the land, bringing doom and destruction.

[Crimsondude]

Most descriptions seem to portray Tzitzimime as the embodiment of the Dark Mother mentor spirit, so I doubt it.

[Longshot23]

Most descriptions seem to portray Tzitzimime as the embodiment of the Dark Mother mentor spirit, so I doubt it.

There are descriptions? Where?

Before putting the initial post up, I went back and checked the Aztlan sourcebook (where tzitzimime were first mentioned, AFAIK). As of that writing, there's a cult which worships the tzitzimime, and might be using the exact same rituals as the official Path of the Sun in their worship.

[Namikaze]

A Google search of the term comes up with this:

Tzitzimitl, which appears to be an Aztec goddess figure.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I was thinking about some stuff, and one concept led to another . . .

Are shedim [supposed to be] the same as tzitzimine?

After waiting for someone else to weigh in, I kinda had to.  The answer is basically 'no'.

Tzitzimine is, in Shadowrun, used to generally mean 'demons', which are supposed to come and devour everyone at the end of the World; Aztechnology and Aztlan are practicing rituals (possibly handed down by feathered serpents, Great or otherwise, corrupt or otherwise) that are supposedly meant to turn them away.  In metagame terms, the tzitzimine are thus the Horrors in general - of which the shedim are a precursor.

[Senko]

Wait I thought the Atzlan blood rituals were weakening the barriers and making it easier for things to get in (something about mana spikes, same with the great ghost dance) when did they start shoring it up instead?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Just because you're turning them away from you doesn't mean you aren't helping them out.  The logic is that if the Azzies bring the bad things (early or not), then they'll be on the 'good side' of the tzitzimine/demons/Horrors, and so the aforementioned Scary Things^TM will go after their enemies and not them.  This is not good logic, necessarily, but that's the thought pattern.  And people have been doing this kind of thing IRL for far too long to make it a non-starter.  Traitors are traditionally well-rewarded ...

But please note the big rich 'supposedly', too.

[DeathStrobe]

Maybe the Foveae are not a result of blood magic, but a magical defense to prevent the horrors from being able to walk around Aztlan too much.

[Nightmare]

I was thinking about some stuff, and one concept led to another . . .

Are shedim [supposed to be] the same as tzitzimine?

After waiting for someone else to weigh in, I kinda had to.  The answer is basically 'no'.

Tzitzimine is, in Shadowrun, used to generally mean 'demons', which are supposed to come and devour everyone at the end of the World; Aztechnology and Aztlan are practicing rituals (possibly handed down by feathered serpents, Great or otherwise, corrupt or otherwise) that are supposedly meant to turn them away.  In metagame terms, the tzitzimine are thus the Horrors in general - of which the shedim are a precursor.

I agree with this, though, I'm not sure their trying to turn then away but are possibly trying to encourage them.  The reason I say this is that in the Aztlan sourcebook, Harlequin mentions that he has seen the tzitzimine advancing faster due to Aztlan's efforts, from which I can only assume he is talking about what happened in the adventure, Harlequin's Back.  If you remember, the villain, who would later also show up in Threats, was Mr. Darke, an Aztechnology employee/specialist, who was trying to hasten the advance of the Horrors who was referred to as The Opponent.  Sounds to me like some within Aztlan want the Horrors on earth.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

See my second reply.

[Bruce]

It could be both.  Aztechnology is a mega-corp, running a nation, and it wouldn't be the first time the left hand is actively countering what the right hand is doing.

Presuming that the leaders of Aztech know what's coming, I could easily see some of them working on rituals to slow the Horrors down, in order to continue doing blood magic.  ("It's fine if we clean up the mess fast, right?")

Others are taking the approach "They're coming eventually; best to get a good deal now, when we have something to offer."

And then, there's the thought that the Horrors might be arriving faster than anyone thinks...

[Nightmare]

See my second reply.

Eeep...didn't see it there...sorry, my fault.


While we're on the subject of folks bringing the Horrors on faster, could Wuxing be helping out too?  I mean, they have been manipulating the dragon lines and increasing/encouraging the astral shallows around their bases.  Sound sto me like someone there wants to bring something over faster than it's supposed to.

[RulezLawyerZ]

While we're on the subject of folks bringing the Horrors on faster, could Wuxing be helping out too?  I mean, they have been manipulating the dragon lines and increasing/encouraging the astral shallows around their bases.  Sound sto me like someone there wants to bring something over faster than it's supposed to.

I don't know about that; I've always looked at it more like Wuxing is building a magical security network around their operations. After all, aspect the local manasphere to your particular flavor of magic (say, wu jen), and it hinders anyone going against the flow (like a hermetic or shamanic magician). No spirits to banish, no ward to break, just a constant background count that favors your guys. Of course, that's not to say that fiddling around with the astral like that isn't hastening the approach of the Horrors, I just don't think that's Wuxing's MO. On the other hand, that seems to be very much Aztlan/Aztechnology's prime motivation (or at the very least, some significant faction thereof).

I very much like the idea of fovae being a defense mechanism, though. Totally gonna steal that. Actually, that might be behind Wuxing's encouragement of them; any purely astral form passing through an astral shallow is visible to anyone else in the shallow, including mundanes (in theory, at least). The astral equivalent to clearing the brush from your fence line, if you follow.