[SlowDeck]

You are all kind of correct.  SlowDeck, you know very well that shooting up the corpsec in a facility, then hauling off the bodies is a Bad Idea - even with a spirit - and that 99 out of 100 times you aren't going to check to see if someone is still alive.  Namikaze, Michael, you both know that if you whack a hitman, selling his body to the ghouls and his 'ware to the clinic in order to dispose of the corpse is Not A Bad Idea.

Not a bad idea, no.  But could it be done more easily with less attention drawn to you?  Certainly.  Thermite bars are cheap, lye is even cheaper.

Honestly, Wyrm is right on this one. Plus, unless you're wanting to draw attention to yourself, lye involves moving the body to an entirely different location. And probably burying it so you don't have to clean up the mess. It's not exactly fast-acting (which is why it's a common old-time ingredient in soap).

And I seriously doubt you're going to be carrying enough thermite to destroy a human body. It tends to take quite a bit. And can leave behind damage that draws attention. Which means you probably still have to move the body to another location to dispose of it.

Since you're pretty much going to move the body anyway, selling it to an organlegger has the advantage of making you money.

Note that the above information is useful for if the runners have to dispose of the body of a Johnson who didn't pay them enough.

[JimmyCrisis]

Ghouls need to eat too.  I imagine they are just as eager to cover up your tracks.  They might give you a good rate, by the pound.

[Namikaze]

Honestly, Wyrm is right on this one. Plus, unless you're wanting to draw attention to yourself, lye involves moving the body to an entirely different location. And probably burying it so you don't have to clean up the mess. It's not exactly fast-acting (which is why it's a common old-time ingredient in soap).

And I seriously doubt you're going to be carrying enough thermite to destroy a human body. It tends to take quite a bit. And can leave behind damage that draws attention. Which means you probably still have to move the body to another location to dispose of it.

Of course - but lye and thermite are what I came up with in all of 5 seconds.    I just re-watched Fargo tonight, and the woodchipper still comes to mind.  I'm just saying that if you don't have to haul away a body, you're better off not risking the possible complications that come from something like that.  Even if no one sees you hauling the body itself, there are all kinds of possible complications that can come up - random vehicle searches, drones with ultrasound sensors scanning your car, your taillight breaks and you get pulled over, whatever.

If you can afford to haul away the body, then yes - you should get some nuyen for it.  But if you're in a hurry (and most runners are in a hurry) then you might just be better off trying to destroy some physical evidence and leaving it behind.

LOL the topic of runner pay seems to always lead to this conversation though, so clearly there are a LOT of organlegging shadowrunners out there.

[Senko]

Pictured the effects on a woodchipper of a body laden with cyber armour and other implants. Why do I suddenly want to rewatch tucker and dale vs evil.

[firebug]

Pictured the effects on a woodchipper of a body laden with cyber armour and other implants. Why do I suddenly want to rewatch tucker and dale vs evil.

I'm betting there's some chromed trolls who's corpse would turn the woodchipper to shreds just trying to rip into them.

And yeah, and with selling bodies to ghouls, you have to be careful.  They probably aren't the best at covering their tracks; if you sell them some gangers or other criminals, no big deal.  But if you off a corpsec and toss his body to ghouls, you better hope nobody finds his uniform in the trash or worse, worn by some homeless ghoul the next day.  That'll draw attention and come back to bite you in the ass.

That said...  I do think such a contact, even if rarely used, is something every runner should have.  You're eventually gonna need to dispose of a body if you're in the shadows for long enough.

[Namikaze]

That said...  I do think such a contact, even if rarely used, is something every runner should have.  You're eventually gonna need to dispose of a body if you're in the shadows for long enough.

That is great advice.  My runners just had a very indirect meeting with a doctor that deals with Tamanous, and one of them was extremely queasy about the idea of dealing with ghouls.  It's ironic, since he was queasy about dealing with a ghoul, but had no qualms about suggesting cold-blooded murder in order to get what the team needed for a particularly nasty ritual.

In any event, if you have a player that doesn't want to deal with ghouls for some reason, you might consider making a front for Tamanous.  Or some organization completely unrelated to Tamanous.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I've actually never had to resort to Tamanous or ghouls to dispose of a body, across any of my characters - though 'harvesting' cyberware was something we did once or twice.  Either trying to do so would have been futile (e.g. stopping in the middle of heated combat), or the point of the killing was not to make the fellow vanish, or the individual's death was in such a location so as to make it vanishingly likely for the corpse (or any corpse) to reappear (i.e. other paracritters would take care of it).  I suppose ghouls were a possibility with a few of the latter, but it wasn't like we were counting on them - or dealing with them.

Note, this doesn't mean I haven't dealt with ghouls - just not for disposal/food/etc.

[Vidnaut]

I've actually never had to resort to Tamanous or ghouls to dispose of a body, across any of my characters - though 'harvesting' cyberware was something we did once or twice.  Either trying to do so would have been futile (e.g. stopping in the middle of heated combat), or the point of the killing was not to make the fellow vanish, or the individual's death was in such a location so as to make it vanishingly likely for the corpse (or any corpse) to reappear (i.e. other paracritters would take care of it).  I suppose ghouls were a possibility with a few of the latter, but it wasn't like we were counting on them - or dealing with them.

Note, this doesn't mean I haven't dealt with ghouls - just not for disposal/food/etc.

Just has me thinking of a ghoulish Tarantino-expy chewing out the runners about "dead trog disposal."

[Namikaze]

Wyrm brings up a good point - I'm sure there are lots of people out there in the shadow community that can handle body disposal without being Tamanous.  I picture the the Wolf from Pulp Fiction.

[firebug]

Wyrm brings up a good point - I'm sure there are lots of people out there in the shadow community that can handle body disposal without being Tamanous.  I picture the the Wolf from Pulp Fiction.

Oh, for sure.  Even some of the most hardened criminals might feel iffy about working with an organization as dark as Tamanous.  Just a bunch of ghouls is probably something more "moral" (if feeding someone you murdered to others could be called such a thing) but yeah, especially if you have a contact in a different syndicate like the Mafia, they probably have more "reputable" ways of such things.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Just remember - Tamanous is pretty much designed to be The Group You Love To Hate That Isn't Aztechnology For Once.  They don't do medical flights of mercy; they cut organs out of still-living people, people who need the organs they're cutting out.  And they don't necessarily bother to spend money on sedatives, either.  Nor are they ghouls; their chapters often have agreements with local ghouls, sure, and I'm certain there's a number of ghouls in their structure, but these are standard people who look at other humans the way a chop-shop mechanic looks at cars - 'parts' and 'money on the hoof'.

IMO, doing business with Tamanous should automatically get you a -2 'cold-hearted bastard' modification to your karma multiplier ...

[Shamie]

Thanks for all the answers.

What i ended up doing was to throw away the models of the missions and make it by myself (i mean, 8k for recovering an ancient artifact?) and im gonna start setting up a reward for the adept soon as they are finishing 99 bottles adapted for seattle so more or less they are saving the Yakuza mafia from being pickles.

As for the threat of the player derailing the whole campaign after i concede to do all that i also remind him that where he try to rob a bank i would take my gloves off with the group as a DM there's a BUNCH of stuff i just let them ignore. For example they never have to burn a SIN or have various safe houses.

So we reach an agreement

[Namikaze]

That's usually the best way to handle it, Shamie.  Reach a balancing point with your players - the general rule that I use for my table is that if the players swing first, I swing second.  Basically, if they start doing something that I'm not currently doing with them, then it becomes fair game.

Which is what I want, actually - at my table, with my new campaign, I'm hoping my players broaden their skills and equipment for a long time before they start ramping up their dice pools.  This is easier over all, and probably more realistic.  So I tend to give a little more Karma than nuyen in general, simply because I want to encourage that growth.  And for the non-mages in my group, I will hand them upgrades and equipment rather than handing them money.

It's all about balance, and it sounds like you've found one that works well for your table.  Awesome. 

[Michael Chandra]

What i ended up doing was to throw away the models of the missions and make it by myself (i mean, 8k for recovering an ancient artifact?)

Missions Rewards are based about a low-power campaign, and even then the rewards aren't that bad in SR4. SR5's Missions rewards are also not bad, but  with 1 big flaw: The runs give after Negotiation what the book says should be the base pay BEFORE Negotiation.

If you follow the base rewards the game system suggests, you end up with quite decent payment. The problem is that that means you actually have to design some default enemies and figure out what you'll throw at them, so you know what dicepools to base the rewards on.

But then again, that can be as simple as "they're facing at least 1 enemy with an offensive 12+ dice, and no enemies with an offensive 16+ dice" and "I intend to throw a lot of weak mooks at them in one scene", and you got the whole Yakuza-involvement and bam, x3 from the dicepools, x1 from the 3-to-1 outnumbered scene, x1 for the risk of a raised profile, and the base reward is 15k, with 500 per net hit (you'll want to set a maximum of 4 or 5 on that, with 4 it's 17 grand per runner.) So if you're doing Yakuza runs which involve either a lot of Critters in a scene, multiple Spirits usage or an attack by loooootsa weak mooks, your runs are likely to all be 15k + nethitsx500 and 6 karma.

[firebug]

A good explanation Michael, and I like that the rules highlight the need for a face for negotiations.  Really gives even the least subtle runners a reason for a face.