[Shamie]

It's really not.  Delta Wired 3 and 3 reaction enhancers is the lamborghini of cyber.  You're looking at 640,000 nuyen for that.  Even so, synaptic 2 costs only 20% more than wired 2.  It is a little more telling that the increased reflexes spell can give a larger bonus that either Wired 3 or SA 3, and it's effectively the same when you can expect to get 6 successes on your casting - which turns out averages on 18 dice rolled (6 mag + 6 sorc +6 power focus)

But yes, 115000 karma can be spent intelligently upgrading your samurai to better effect, after all there is plenty of cheap chrome that gives armor or attribute bonuses.  But at some point you'll run out of essence, and then progress halts until you repurchase all of your parts at a higher grade.

In the meantime, the mage has maxed out their bonuses from foci.  The only thing they have left to do is initiate, and that's part of the problem.  Mages get all their development from their karma, and when they do develop their power is increased across the board -  utility function, combat capability, and defense all get better with one dice pool increase.

The samurai only increases one aspect - attack, armor, skills, other utilities, with each piece of cyber ware they install.  Only the most essence and nuyen intensive cyberware increases their capabilities across the board - Muscle replacement, SA, wired.

In this campaign they dont have a mage yet but still i never found the mage difficult  to handle, maybe because is the class im most familiar with that i know how to put the boot on a mage when i need to.

Personally I'd throw it a few different ways.  Some Johnsons might prefer to pay the team, and let the team sort out who gets what share.  Other Johnsons might prefer to pay per team member.  In the latter case, they might be interested in meeting the whole team, not just the face.  That's something to consider as well, but it's unrelated to your topic.  Some Johnsons might want to pay in barter instead of nuyen because they might have access to a prototype, but not to liquid assets.

So how you pay your runners is really up to you, but I'd suggest mixing it up once in a while to keep the runners on their toes and to help make the Johnsons seem more fleshed-out.  Nothing worse than Mr. Johnson becoming the equivalent of an ATM to your players.

Thats true, kinda bothers me they never run a check on the johnson. They believe everything the johnson says which for missions is kinda OK because the missions are like that, but i think next next session im gonna have the johnson just stab them in the back

[firebug]

The pay for runners is almost never easy to find out, for sure...  The book's rules are a good starting point, but yeah, as they progress, they should be paid more.  Another thing related to what Namikaze said, with the runners being paid in things beyond money.  For example, if you do a run for Ares, the Street Samurai could ask the face to try and persuade the Johnson to, say...  Allow them the use of an Ares Desert Strike sniper rifle for the job, and then negotiate keeping it as part of the pay.  See, Ares doesn't need to spend 17k to get the rifle.  Say it only costs them like, 5,000 to make it (I'm just throwing out numbers) and instead of offering 15,000 as the reward, they go for 9,000 and the rifle.  It costs them less money than paying outright, and the runners get a high quality piece of gear for cheap.

In my game, the players are smugglers/couriers.  They're paid a percentage of the price of whatever they're carrying.  They're not told what they're carrying, just that it's important and they'll be paid X amount.  I haven't done much with that though, so I can't say it's tried-and-true or anything.

[Namikaze]

I am going to try to get my players to take more items in lieu of nuyen.  It helps me to control access to higher-end gear, which helps to control the power level of the game.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

The 'great gear partially replaces great nuyen' idea is a good one; as Namikaze says, it helps control access to higher-end gear, and it will get your players in the mindset that bargaining for gear-as-payment (or later on, access-as-payment) is a good thing.  And it is.

I do somewhat disagree with the benchmarks of the books, however, because you are not going to find top-notch people working for frickin' pennies; Chimera doesn't do 'work' for under half a mil, savvy?  As our good Critias once put it on Shadowland 6:

But when you reach a certain level of karma and nuyen, the game takes on a different feel. In D&D, for the first few levels, goblins are scary motherfuckers and a +1 dagger is a rare prize. But sooner or later, the GM has to up the ante, y'know?

I would take the benchmarks in the books, and for every point of 'core skills' expected to be used in the run - so for a decking run, that'd be Computer, Hacking, and/or Cybercombat, while for a magic-centric run that might be Sorcery or Conjuring - above 6, I'd add +1 to the cash modifier.  Simply put, they're paying you more because you're good.  (Doesn't improve your karma earnings, though - just your cash.)  If you have multiple skills that apply, then that's nice, but it should be an average across the board.  (One guy at 8 while everyone else is cruising at 5-6 might give you a slight bump, for example.)

In addition, you have two ways to play a Johnson: a professional who wants good runners in his stable (Type A), or a professional who wants to not have to pay the runners (Type B).  Type B is going to try to double-cross the runners, or be extremely stingy when it comes to 'So what there were toxics involved?  Not my problem.'  Type A, on the other hand, is going to want to keep his runners happy; this happens more often when a lower-class person (such as a fixer of some sort) wants his 'stable' to grow.  Mr. Type A will give his runners bonuses, or be available to provide an 'additiona contract for action above and beyond'.  "This goes well beyond your original contract; we were not aware that Ms. Euphoria was in that sort of situation.  We will pay you 100,000¥ to get her out."

I prefer to play a smart Type A Johnson; Type Bs tend to last ... less long, since trying to double-cross people who inflict extreme violence on others for a living is in and of itself a life-threatening task.  (Besides, a good Type A will eventually get them to practically volunteer for a suicide mission.  See aforementioned 'Euphoria' job above....)

[Vidnaut]

Paying runners enough?  I don't know the exact amount that might be or the method one would calculate it but I do know one behavioral symptom of getting it right would be a significant shift in the runner's interest in on-the-job-looting to the more professional aspect of getting the run done ASAP.

[Senko]

What do you mean season 2 missions I thought we only had the core book out.

Some ibteresting ideas there it also could depend a bit on ingame time too e.g a run that takes one night "I've gotten word Caparelli plans to double cross me at our meeting tommorow i want some extra muscle handy just in case. Go here, wait if I signal come in and help me get clear. Would pay less than a job where your locking them up for weeks or months. I need this prototype stolen. Well we need to get plans, observe security, come up with an infiltration plan which means working out jow to get past the guards and that's all just before we get in the pyramid we'll need an extra 10k per person to live on while we do this if you want it done right.

Tell them or better yet show them leaving the bodies just means someone else strips them for parts/money. It's not nice but I'm pretty sure its what wpuld happen in this world unless your talking innocent bystander or middle class up.

[Michael Chandra]

Thing is that is not "THE ultimate thing" but one of the things (just the reflex are 100k at least) and im not really into having more than a year (real life) of campaign in me for this one at least.

Im currently dming season 4 missions and the complain is that the pay of 9000 base (assuming they fail every single negotiation test) isnt enough

Yeah, here's the thing... Missions is a low-power campaign in general, you don't get to buy the super-expensive toys during it. If you only want a year in campaign, the players won't be getting the really expensive toys, and their characters shouldn't be aiming for it to begin with. You start by boosting survival potential, and THEN you can consider saving up, if you're good enough. If you're only playing for a year, so 8~24 runs, the characters simply won't be at that level yet.

Just because the shiny toys exist, doesn't mean the players should be able to get them. It all depends on the campaign.

(In SR5 Missions, I have spent about 90k on Sniper Rifles and Reaction Enhancers, and only NOW am I considering saving up for a Suprathyroid Gland, with use of the karma-to-nuyen rules, assuming they one day errata/faq it to stack with the muscle toner and enhancers.)

Wait, that's not standard operating procedure? I mean, I figured it was less unscrupulous to ensure the ghouls had a steady food supply than to leave them to their own devices and let them prey on people... I mean, the guy's dead anyway, so...

No, it's not. First of, bodies are heavy and you generally do NOT have the time to drag them with you. Second, if you start taking killed opponents to the chopshop, you're going to be facing Notoriety soon. See, here's what people think when you leave bodies: "Ah, guess things got out of hand" or "Sloppy, but they get the job done". When you take them with you to the chopshop? "So these guys deliberately kill as many people as possible and go out of their way doing so, even risking the job result, just so they can drag their victims off to the chopshops? Yeah, I ain't dealing with bloodthirsty serial killers."

What do you mean season 2 missions I thought we only had the core book out.

Season 2.5 (midway 2) to 4 are SR4, Season 5 is SR5 and contains as legal missions:
- The rewritten 2010 CMPs, released in Sprawl Wilds and Firing Line.
- SRM-5A, 1 has been released, 2 to 6 have been played at conventions and are making their way through the process to be released, one at a time.
- 2013 CMPs were played in 2013~2014 conventions, that's Dragon's Song and Dangerous Games.
- 2014 CMPs will be new starting Origins, including Mercy (rewritten from a tournament design of 3 that got cancelled due to lack of interest), forget the other's name.
~ Introduction to the Sixth World events are legal.

So that's 9 available for the general public so far, and starting with Origins 31 total available through conventions and such. And the next batch of SRM-5, likely SRM-5B, is also in development.

[Senko]

I see thank you.

As a type b Johnson there was a backstory about a character (in one of the official books) who did a lot of runs for the same guy and came to trust him. Then when he was advancing the idiot pulled a double cross and set the entire team up to be killed. Missed the boss who was very unhappy about all the friends he'd grown up with being liked and caught then horribly torutred the guy to death before staking him up outside his corporate headquarters.

Which is why i expect most double crosses are in the we left a bit of info off rather than we set you up to be permanently killed. Besides if your good enough to rise in the ranks your generally good enough to know it always pays to have a loyal group of deniable assets around.

[SlowDeck]

Wait, that's not standard operating procedure? I mean, I figured it was less unscrupulous to ensure the ghouls had a steady food supply than to leave them to their own devices and let them prey on people... I mean, the guy's dead anyway, so...

No, it's not. First of, bodies are heavy and you generally do NOT have the time to drag them with you. Second, if you start taking killed opponents to the chopshop, you're going to be facing Notoriety soon. See, here's what people think when you leave bodies: "Ah, guess things got out of hand" or "Sloppy, but they get the job done". When you take them with you to the chopshop? "So these guys deliberately kill as many people as possible and go out of their way doing so, even risking the job result, just so they can drag their victims off to the chopshops? Yeah, I ain't dealing with bloodthirsty serial killers."

Moving the body is what spirits are for. Selling the body can be advertised as disposing of evidence. After all, if you get in firefights often enough that the question of you being a serial killer comes up for disposing the body, it'll probably come up alongside questions of your ability to get a job done quietly and questions of if you might be a serial killer just due to the sheer number of guards you killed.

Then again, gel rounds, masks, and use of stun spells can take down a lot of guards and make certain you not only didn't kill anyone, but made certain that even if they saw you they can't identify who knocked them unconscious.

[Namikaze]

Moving the body is what spirits are for. Selling the body can be advertised as disposing of evidence.

You're going to summon a spirit, have it manifest, and have it lug bodies around for you?  That's certainly not going to get attention.

[SlowDeck]

If I'm moving bodies instead of making certain the unconscious people are still alive, it's a little late to worry about drawing attention...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You are all kind of correct.  SlowDeck, you know very well that shooting up the corpsec in a facility, then hauling off the bodies is a Bad Idea - even with a spirit - and that 99 out of 100 times you aren't going to check to see if someone is still alive.  Namikaze, Michael, you both know that if you whack a hitman, selling his body to the ghouls and his 'ware to the clinic in order to dispose of the corpse is Not A Bad Idea.

[Vidnaut]

I see thank you.

As a type b Johnson there was a backstory about a character (in one of the official books) who did a lot of runs for the same guy and came to trust him. Then when he was advancing the idiot pulled a double cross and set the entire team up to be killed. Missed the boss who was very unhappy about all the friends he'd grown up with being liked and caught then horribly torutred the guy to death before staking him up outside his corporate headquarters.

Which is why i expect most double crosses are in the we left a bit of info off rather than we set you up to be permanently killed. Besides if your good enough to rise in the ranks your generally good enough to know it always pays to have a loyal group of deniable assets around.

Yeah, that sounds like it was Mercer's story in the SR4 2050 historical setting book on Dealing With Mr. Johnson (pg. 116).

[Namikaze]

You are all kind of correct.  SlowDeck, you know very well that shooting up the corpsec in a facility, then hauling off the bodies is a Bad Idea - even with a spirit - and that 99 out of 100 times you aren't going to check to see if someone is still alive.  Namikaze, Michael, you both know that if you whack a hitman, selling his body to the ghouls and his 'ware to the clinic in order to dispose of the corpse is Not A Bad Idea.

Not a bad idea, no.  But could it be done more easily with less attention drawn to you?  Certainly.  Thermite bars are cheap, lye is even cheaper.

[Senko]

I see thank you.

As a type b Johnson there was a backstory about a character (in one of the official books) who did a lot of runs for the same guy and came to trust him. Then when he was advancing the idiot pulled a double cross and set the entire team up to be killed. Missed the boss who was very unhappy about all the friends he'd grown up with being liked and caught then horribly torutred the guy to death before staking him up outside his corporate headquarters.

Which is why i expect most double crosses are in the we left a bit of info off rather than we set you up to be permanently killed. Besides if your good enough to rise in the ranks your generally good enough to know it always pays to have a loyal group of deniable assets around.

Yeah, that sounds like it was Mercer's story in the SR4 2050 historical setting book on Dealing With Mr. Johnson (pg. 116).

Definately from Mercer I'll take your word on where.