NEWS

[WIP] Technomancer handbook

  • 89 Replies
  • 40721 Views

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #45 on: <05-02-14/1118:31> »
are you suggesting that the mind over machine echo give your living persona a data jack and one meter of retractable cable....  :o

He's saying that, Rules As Written, it does.  It just says you "get the benefit of a Rating 1 Control Rig".  Strictly speaking, that's a lot of things including a meter of cable, a data jack, etc.

It's an example of "clearly RAW is not the answer here."
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #46 on: <05-02-14/1308:45> »
Exactly.

There are people who'd say "house rules can't be used because they are house rules. The technomancer needs to stand up by RAW" or something like that. In which case, Mind over Machine becomes applicable as a method of direct connection.

Granted though, it'll cost you 30 karma to do, since they've not fix such a simple and easy typo to fix.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #47 on: <05-02-14/1332:19> »
I dont agree. Data Tap is used wireless like 99.9% of all SR5 devices. If it can not be used wireless then it would specifically state that (in SR5 all devices have wireless capability by default - everything you can do with a wire you can do wireless... unless explicit stated otherwise). Here are a few examples from the book of devices that lack wireless capabilities.

"Certified Credstick ... 're not even wireless - you have to slot them into a universal data connector to ..."

"Datachip … have no wireless capability, so you need to plug them into a universal data connector ... if you .."

"Throwbacks can't be accessed by wireless connection ... cant be controlled remotely or get wireless bonus ... have universal data connector, so you can ..."


Cant access them wireless. You need to. You have to.

You do know the throwbacks quote supports my position, right? In fact, take a look at the wording of using a UAP in the Throwbacks section... Here's what it says on throwbacks:

"you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly,"

Here's what the data tap bit says on using a UAP with it:

"you can use it via universal data connector."

Notice how remarkably similar those two bits are in how you're accessing the device? And even how, despite using a direct wired connection, the Throwbacks section still uses the word "can" despite having eliminated the other option? That's because it is a statement of possibility to use an action. Not a statement of existence of other options.

Quote
Data Tap does not state you "cant use it wireless". That you "need" or "have to" use a wire. Devices with no wireless capability does not (ever) have a wireless bonus. Some wireless devices, including but not limited to data tap, have wireless bonus.

Besides accessing the data tap in the "normal" wireless way you "can" use it via universal data connector. Something you cant do with a data tap is to establish a wireless direct connection. To establish a direct connection you use a data cable directly into the universal data connector of the data tap.

Can you use a data tap via UAP? Yes. But as the throwbacks section demonstrates, just because you can use it that way does not mean you can use it other ways. And with rules systems, specific wordings like this are always exceptions to the normal... otherwise, you would be able to access all throwbacks wirelessly, regardless of what the throwbacks section says. Unfortunately, proving that using the word "can" indicates something other than just possibility to use a single option would mean that you could access throwbacks wirelessly, which is in direct contradiction of RAW.

And, as Triskavanski demonstrates, RAW is a little ridiculous at times. This is one of those times.

To borrow from firebug... This is a case of "clearly RAW is not the answer here."

Quote
As for Wired Security. The only device that let you "breach" a cable (attaching it to a data cable) and "tap" it for data is the data tap. I cant see how you can accomplish it without a data tap.

It's not the only device in the core rulebook... You can also use a kit and a Hardware check. It's not explicitly spelled out, but it's actually how a lot of real-life tapping into a wire works.

Quote
...but out of curiosoity...
In your reading what "several other items" let you do that...?

There is a good example the book uses of wireless functionality that I will cite here: Bone lacing. In fact, the book specifically calls out bone lacing for an item where, despite hacking it, you can't actually do anything with it. Of course, this is because bone lacing doesn't actually have any wireless at all; it's sensor tags attached to it (if you don't believe me, read Wireless Functionality on pages 420-421). Sure, you can alter reports or maybe get creative and use it to send out "Trogs should be burned at the stake like the demons they are!" while the person who has it is surrounded by troll gangers or in the Ork Underground... but you can't use it to break their bones or to strip them of its main function. It's effectively not wireless simply because its main usage (reinforcing your bones) cannot be affected wirelessly.

They also cite pants. Specifically, the pants themselves don't have wireless access; it's a computer added onto them. It can play music and tell you it's time to do laundry, but common sense dictates that, for a cheap pair of jeans, this is pretty much it. Sure, a hacker could hack the pants, have the pants start broadcasting that you soiled yourself, change your entire music library to be just the Titanic theme song and play it on endless repeat, and start sending out messages that you have a bomb in your back pocket while you're trying to go through customs. But someone can always remove the computer and have the pants not adversely affected. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most experienced shadowrunners didn't have a set of throwback clothing to wear just for when they're running.

Pretty much, the rules directly hint that just because a device has wireless functionality doesn't mean its wireless functionality actually has anything to do with the main use of it or in any way allows you to wirelessly use the device for its main usage. But the rules on wireless pretty much say that, unless there's something written explicitly regarding how you use the device or common sense dictates otherwise, you can use its main function wirelessly. And a data tap has it spelled out explicitly how you use it (despite common sense saying otherwise).
« Last Edit: <05-02-14/1401:08> by SlowDeck »
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #48 on: <05-02-14/1357:09> »
Actually.. Throwback also includes other words too that says its not wireless, and cannot be used wirelessly.
Quote
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks,devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither
be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus

Throwbacks, specifically stand against your position there. Notice how Remarkably it states several times how you're not able to use it wirelessly? It takes some extremely impressive mental gymnastics to completely ignore the first paragraph of text. Throwbacks are an exception, and it specifically states how they are an exception.


Quote
WIRELESS
FUNCTIONALITY
The world is wireless. Almost every device you can think of has been computerized and equipped with a wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled computer built in. Even non-electronic items without any moving parts have built-in computers, so now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID tags(p. 440).

the part about the bone lacing and the bones, is because the bone lacing has absolutely no way of breaking your bones. Its not made to break your bones. Its not built to heal your bones. Its not built to move. Its simply a lattice of a material around your bones that lacks any other functions.

Guns fire slugs of metal. No amount of hacking is going to change that its slugs of metal its flinging out. You can't hack the gun to shoot healing beam, or love arrows. You can't hack a gun so it can administer anti-toxin instead of bullets. However you are capable of firing a gun wirelessly. Because guns are built to fire bullets, and are capable of being accessed remotely.

Its the same way with the Data-Tap. The wireless bonus is NOT its wireless function. It is a wireless function. Why do you think it detonates wirelessly as a bonus? because if you're always limited to using a cable to plug into it.. You'd be right next to it. With no need to blow it up. You could take it with you.

However if you're accessing it wirelessly, and someone finds it.. Well you might want to blow it up so they don't know it was you who was tapping the line.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #49 on: <05-02-14/1402:03> »
"you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly,"
You can also use a wire that is not included in the spooled data filament.
"Can" is simply not equal to "Must", "Have to", "Shall" (or other similar words).

If it instead said "you must use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," or "you have to use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," then it would be clear that you cannot use any other ways than the included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly. Thank god they used the word can.... If not we would by RAW not be allowed to use the retractable cable from your datajack to connect to a throwback device ;)


"you can use it via universal data connector."
That is not the same thing as:
You must connect it via universal data connector
or
You have to connect it via universal data connector

They are giving an example of how you can connect to the data tap.


You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable.
There is no "can" here.
To use this tool you must attach it to a data cable.

Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector.
There is a "can" here.
There might or might not be other methods to connect to a data tap that is already clamped onto a cable.

Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa.
There is no "can" here.
To get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable you must have a direct connection to the data tap.

The tap can be removed without damaging the cable.
There is a "can" here.
It might or might not be possible to remove the data tap in such a way that you damage the cable.


...otherwise, you would be able to access all throwbacks wirelessly
It is not the phrase "you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," that prevent you to connect wireless to a throwback device (that phrase only give you a suggestion on ONE possible way to connect to its UDC; you don't HAVE to use the spool that is included. There might or might not be other ways to connect to a throwback directly without using the included spooled data filament)

- it is the phrase "Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection" that prevent you from connecting to it wireless.


Quote
...but out of curiosoity...
In your reading what "several other items" let you do that...?
...Bone lacing...
...pants...
I must have miss-read what you typed. If that was the case then i apologize.

(I got the impression you said there was several other items that could be used to gain access to a wired network)



Slipped by Triskavanski
« Last Edit: <05-02-14/1422:08> by Xenon »

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #50 on: <05-02-14/1454:17> »
Actually.. Throwback also includes other words too that says its not wireless, and cannot be used wirelessly.
Quote
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks,devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither
be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus

Throwbacks, specifically stand against your position there. Notice how Remarkably it states several times how you're not able to use it wirelessly? It takes some extremely impressive mental gymnastics to completely ignore the first paragraph of text. Throwbacks are an exception, and it specifically states how they are an exception.


Quote
WIRELESS
FUNCTIONALITY
The world is wireless. Almost every device you can think of has been computerized and equipped with a wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled computer built in. Even non-electronic items without any moving parts have built-in computers, so now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID tags(p. 440).

the part about the bone lacing and the bones, is because the bone lacing has absolutely no way of breaking your bones. Its not made to break your bones. Its not built to heal your bones. Its not built to move. Its simply a lattice of a material around your bones that lacks any other functions.

Guns fire slugs of metal. No amount of hacking is going to change that its slugs of metal its flinging out. You can't hack the gun to shoot healing beam, or love arrows. You can't hack a gun so it can administer anti-toxin instead of bullets. However you are capable of firing a gun wirelessly. Because guns are built to fire bullets, and are capable of being accessed remotely.

Its the same way with the Data-Tap. The wireless bonus is NOT its wireless function. It is a wireless function. Why do you think it detonates wirelessly as a bonus? because if you're always limited to using a cable to plug into it.. You'd be right next to it. With no need to blow it up. You could take it with you.

However if you're accessing it wirelessly, and someone finds it.. Well you might want to blow it up so they don't know it was you who was tapping the line.

Believe it or not, but the entire thing over pointing out the wording of the section on throwbacks is related to an argument on the word "can." Xenon's entire argument relies on the possibility that "can" indicates other options when used. I'm pointing out that the word does not.

As for that bit you posted: You're using common sense when looking at the wireless bonus. Problem: Nothing indicates the wireless function has to actually be the ability to use the main function of the device. You simply cannot use bone lacing to reinforce your bones wirelessly; it must be implanted. Nor can you use it, as you pointed out, for a function that is not possible for it.

Well, here's the thing... The data tap's language on using it is specific to UAP connections. Also, read what the data tap actually does; it creates an access point for direct connection to two devices connected by wire. Nothing about it indicates it serves any function outside of, basically, being a hacker-installed UAP. Everything about it except for blowing it up is related to direct connections. Being able to use it for non-wired connections is something that exists outside of RAW.

As it stands, every bit of the wording about the device pretty much backs up that it's only intended for establishing direct connections. Which means you can't use it for wireless access because it's not possible to establish a direct connection wirelessly; the fact it specifies UAP connections for using it backs that up.

So here's the problem: To prove you can use it wirelessly, you have to find wording within the device that allows you to do so. RAW, the device doesn't allow it and doesn't exist for connections where it would be possible anyway. Or you can take the common sense approach and just houserule it.

As for the rest... read my reply to Xenon. What I have to say about him when he gets into the "cans" is very, very relevant to what you said.

Edit: Just to note... I am not arguing that the data tap lacks wireless functionality.

You can also use a wire that is not included in the spooled data filament.
"Can" is simply not equal to "Must", "Have to", "Shall" (or other similar words).

"Can" also doesn't mean that you have other options than the one specified.

Seriously, if we go in circles any faster on this one, I think we'll generate our own artificial gravity. We're already drawing people in and trapping them  :P

And, yes, I am poking fun at myself with that  ;)

Quote
That is not the same thing as:
You must connect it via universal data connector
or
You have to connect it via universal data connector

They are giving an example of how you can connect to the data tap.

Which they don't need to, as it was defined at the beginning of the equipment section. That every device has a UAP doesn't need mentioned again for a connection value. Just mention you use it to tap into wires, include a wireless bonus, and save the extra wording for something else. Like the Krime Cannon and where it gets its one point of recoil reduction from. I know this is part of your point, and am going to take the comment as a whole, but I wanted to address this separately as a lead-in to what I'm going to say.

Quote
You use this hacking tool by attaching it to a data cable.
There is no "can" here.
To use this tool you must attach it to a data cable.

Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can use it via universal data connector.
There is a "can" here.
There might or might not be other methods to connect to the data tap.

Any device directly connected to the data tap also has a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct Connections, p. 232) and vice versa.
There is no "can" here.
To get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable you must have a direct connection to the data tap.

The tap can be removed without damaging the cable.
There is a "can" here.
It might or might not be possible to remove the data tap in such a way that you damage the cable.

You misread the last sentence with a "can" in it. Read the wireless bonus as well. The "can" in this case is not indicating that there is a possibility of damaging the cable, but indicates it is possible for you to remove it this way. You can also choose to leave it in place, or can choose to wirelessly remove it by blowing it up. Which would be useful for creating permanent taps, such as for illegal Matrix access. The wireless bonus would allow you to monitor those taps from a distance, then detonate it if it is discovered.

The use of the word "can" basically is a short way of saying "you may do this, or you may choose not to do it." It's a lingual form of the binary decision making computers use all of the time.

Now, note that everything you quoted is how you use the device. Not "attaching it to a wire" as being the use, but "attach it to a wire, plug in with a direct connection, and later on remove it if you wish." That is the entire usage summarized.

Now, ask yourself this... why does this device specify direct connections and why does it specify UAP connections? Well, the former is obviously for wired networks; but, then, by common sense, the device could then just broadcast the entire data stream wirelessly. After all, for the era in which it exists, that makes sense that it could do both. Except, it apparently can't.

Notice how everything about the device except its wireless bonus is related to wired connections. It connects to a wire. It specifies a UAP connection for connecting to it to use the wired network. It specifies direct connection. It basically sounds like a portable UAP you can clamp onto any wire you come across, doesn't it?

You can use it for direct connection to wired networks? Okay, that's supported in the rules.
You can wirelessly blow the sucker up? Okay, that's supported.
You can use it wirelessly for connecting to wired networks? Absolutely nothing in the text indicates that. But it makes common sense, even if the rules don't support it.

Quote
It is not the phrase "you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly," that prevent you to connect wireless to a throwback device (that phrase only give you a suggestion on ONE possible way to connect to its UDC; you don't HAVE to use the spool that is included. There might or might not be other ways to connect to a throwback directly without using the included spooled data filament)

- it is the phrase "Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection" that prevent you from connecting to it wireless.

I was using that to show the inherent problem with your argument; after all, I'm not the one who is arguing that the word "can" indicates functionality beyond what is present. I'm pointing out the inherent problem with that argument.

Quote
I must have miss-read what you typed. If that was the case then i apologize.

(I got the impression you said there was several other items that could be used to gain access to a wired network)

Oh! No, I had misread what you were asking about.

Pretty much, pick any single item in the blades section. Then grab a kit related to hardware. Then you can use those blades to tap into a wired network (you're using the kit to provide a device you can plug both ends of the now-severed wire into so you can monitor the network). The rest of the items pretty much follow the same pattern. Of course, the moment you go severing live wires, you'll probably either die or get instantly caught. Or both. Kinda why the data tap is so important...
« Last Edit: <05-02-14/1512:12> by SlowDeck »
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #51 on: <05-02-14/1514:50> »
*dies from wall of text*

norskface

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 91
« Reply #52 on: <05-02-14/1516:48> »
Back to the handbook:

I actually have put on my TM my LO quite high and planing to boost it also with some Cerbral Boosters on 10. At the same time I think Damage Compensator is the way to go it, not Pain indicator, because, yes it increases your Willpower, but drops your Intuition. And as I said before, till now its not so big use of Sprites all the time, so you still have to hack it your self. I have not enough experience, to realy say its the way to go, but having high LO and IN like a Decker is my way to go...

Correct me if Im wrong and I see the point of high Willpower, but till there is no Bio to raise it, I gues I woned have it much higher than my 6.

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #53 on: <05-02-14/1517:12> »
I've gone in so many circles on what I'm saying that my argument has become a singularity and kills people who get near it. Lovely.
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #54 on: <05-02-14/1639:35> »
...the device could then just broadcast the entire data stream wirelessly. After all, for the era in which it exists, that makes sense that it could do both. Except, it apparently can't.
Except that Wired Security do tell us that if a wire is breached and tapped anywhere along its length, the signals can be intercepted and retransmitted via wireless. You can breach and tap a wire along its length by using a data tap. A Technomancer can access retransmitted wireless signals with her Living Persona (so can a decker with the persona he form on his cyberdeck)

If you use a data tap you can even get a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable, but this cannot be done wireless. To do this you need to attach a cable into the universal data connector of the data tap. A Technomancer can't attach the wire from her Living Persona to establish a direct connection with the devices on either end of the cable (but a decker can attach a wire from his cyberdeck).

Since the book does not go into detail how you retransmitt signals from a wired network you might or might not need additional devices for the actual retransmitting-part (like a satellite link - but in SR5 devices are very capable of talking directly to other devices without using a third party as some sort of router or proxy as long as the other device is within range -so my guess is that you only need a satellite link if you are at a remote location that does not have matrix access; like if you are breaching a wired network on an oil rig in the middle of the pacific ocean or a wired secret laboratory located on the north pole), but a data tap is [one of] the device(s) you need if you want to breach a wire to tap signals from a wired network.

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #55 on: <05-02-14/1654:19> »
I can't argue with what you posted. Overall, end of the day, I notice that no one here actually disagreed over the idea of the data tap broadcasting wirelessly making sense just from a common sense standpoint.

So, overall, we weren't in disagreement about how this should be handled; just in disagreement about how RAW actually handles it. Which, I think, mimics the very arguments that may crop up at tables involving technomancers if the tables decide to stick purely to RAW.

My post is getting too wordy, so going to cut off the fifteen other paragraphs I had and end it here. I'll save that dissertation for my master's on pedantic arguments. I think this thread alone will earn my bachelor's  :P
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Triskavanski

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2249
« Reply #56 on: <05-02-14/1656:30> »
By RAW all things can function wirelessly.  Says so inthe wireless connectivity part.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

Triskavanski's House Rules

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #57 on: <05-02-14/1710:51> »
I forgot I asked Aaron this question a while back. Here's his answer:
Q: Can a data tap be attached to a wire and then accessed wirelessly for the purposes of hacking the device(s) on either end of the wire?
Yes. That's what it's for. You calculate the range to the data tap rather than the devices for purposes of  noise.

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #58 on: <05-02-14/1714:42> »
 :-[

Xenon and Triskavanski, you both have my apology for being such a pain in this topic. I should have recognized I was completely off much earlier.
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #59 on: <05-02-14/1732:24> »
No need to apologize Omae
You know I love to debate stuff like this :)