[MajorTwitch]

My question is why is no equip-able armor hardened?
From reading the creature power it seems the hardened armor is just simply heavy/thick armor. Military-grade heavy armor looks pretty tough but a light pistol is a threat to the wearer. Modern military grade armor would mostly just see a scratch if hit with a .22. Just seems odd that the smallest fire arms is the are able to penetrate the heaviest armor with no issue. Is hardened armor only achievable with magic or something?

And could a player build an exoskeleton to pilot that would give the person inside a hardened armor to a degree?

[Mithlas]

Strictly speaking most modern military body armour is kevlar that doesn't encompass the whole person, so taking physical injury from any caliber is still a possibility even if getting hit in the actual protected regions is more likely to cause bruising than bleeding out. Hardened armour is something that can only be found on materialized spirits, possessing spirits, and rare creatures with the Immunity to Normal Weapons (hardened armour) power.

You could kinda build an "exoskeleton" (some variations on Arsenal's Horseman center on this idea) but you're using the vehicle instead of your own stats. If your GM allows Attitude, it has the Iron Will which is basically a worn vehicle and hence you can put vehicle armour and passenger protection on it. Since vehicles don't take stun damage, that's basially 4E's equivalent to hardened armour.

[MajorTwitch]

So you are proposing the idea that hardened is basically armor without any gaps or soft spots in it. A hardened armor that could be worn by a player would reduce the user/wearer to a 1 agility. The armor would have to have no gaps in it greatly restricting movement. With that level coverage weight would all so be pretty large, most would need servos and such to move in the armor. At that point... you are basically wearing a vehicle. I guess that is a whole like the idea of power armor from warhammer 40k and the like.

[Mithlas]

Technically, armour that has (practically) no gaps has been around since at least the 1500s: Gotischer Plattenpanzer, the problem is that weapon technology has advanced faster than protective technology. It's a lot cheaper (and usually easier) to make a weapon capable of circumventing modern body armor than it is armour capable of warding off modern weapons. I think the issue is about having something that effectively deforms against incoming blows and distributes incoming kinetic energy (both efficiently dissipating energy) without - as you mentioned - being so heavy that it wouldn't let its wearer move around effectively (or being too expensive to make for anybody poorer than CEOs that won't be going into combat anyway).

The idea of powered armour (basically an exosuit) has been around since Lensman's short story in 1937, but at present the weight and energy storage is too cumbersome to be done on any feasable budget. If you look at Shadowrun, I would say that armour has advanced much faster than weaponry because even if you don't see powered-armour infantry (though you could install strength-assist servos in milspec armour as of Arsenal), in Attitude it mentions that items like the Iron Will worn exoskeleton used to be the powered armor of choice before cyberware became as cheap and ubiquitous as it was in 2074.

[MajorTwitch]

The exodus of exoskeletons makes very little sense to me.
The Iron Will appears to be possibly mechanical powered, it simply amplifies movements from the user. The text doesn't make any mention of power or fueled needed for operation. Which could explain its lower base cost 3400. Then make then make a armor modification of rating 12 to it for 2400(a 6R). For 5600 you looking at having a 16, base of 4, hardened armor, 1 agility and 8 strength. That makes a person about unstoppable, short of magic and really big guns. But admittedly the user is going to have trouble hitting things in combat. For another 4000 you get a reinforced weapon mount. You can then mount and use a gatling modified heavy machine gun on full auto, 250 rounds in store, with no recoil due to it being vehicle mounted. A -14 to dodge pool should help a person hit things.

Looking heavy combat armor with helm is 18/16 for 30,000(20F) unmodified. Cyberware is at least 15,000 a limb and cut into the essence. Neither saves a person from stun damage. Iron Will seems very cost effective, cheaper and better. The Iron Will is 50 years old. I would a think that a modern exoskeleton have even more armor and a internal power source that help removes the agility penalty. And start around 20,000 the price of mid range car.

[martinchaen]

MajorTwitch
The issue with your version of the Iron Will is that you'd stick out worse than a Giant at a Dwarf-only convention. There are no movement speeds listed for the Iron Will in Attitude, and you can bet that if you wanted to load it up with armor and heavy weapons I as a GM would make you sloooow.

There's a reason the book labels them as relics; they're outdated. Trying to get anywhere in a thing like that would be a major hassle, if you look at more than just the stats.

[MajorTwitch]

Would you really stick out? The exoskeleton is 2.5 meters tall and extra 200kg (without extra armor). Add a human (and some armor) to a Iron Will and you have a machine that is about the same size and weight of a troll. Next use one or two slots for pimp my ride and remodel the exterior armor to appear like a obvious full cybrog or a metahumanoid walker drone. So anywhere a troll could go you could go as well. Still would get looks but i don't think i would stand out nearly as much.

There are no movement is listed because the exoskeleton cannot move on its own. It takes up the users movement speed once equipped. Given that the exoskeleton was designed to heavy loads I don't know why loading up with weapon would slow a person. It sets the users strength to 8 meaning he should be able have 160kg of weapons before feeling the effects encumbrance?

[martinchaen]

We clearly have different views on this, which is cool. I'm not your GM...

[MajorTwitch]

Indeed we seem to have different views on this. I have yet to take these schemes to my GM. I would like to explore why you feel that this isn't practical. All in the event the my GM sees things your way as well. Seems to me that my interpretation is within the rules? Or is this just a matter of GM discretion and how things should be?

[martinchaen]

A) No vehicle armor is hardened in SR4
B) That exoskeleton might be 2.5 meters tall, but it fits a human inside of it and it has a lot of hydraulics/memoryweave muscles to create high strength. If you add visible armor and a gun mount, you'll stick out like a sore thumb as I see it.
C) Taking the Custom Look does not allow you to conceal your weapon mount; if anything, it makes it look even flashier with the result that it stands out even more; you'd need a concealed reinforced weapon mount for that
D) You're correct, speed is not mentioned. You're assuming it replaces the users; I would MAYBE let you use your base walking speed, but not running, because it's stated to be lumbering, which is represented by the -1 to AGI
E) A heavy machine gun like the Browning M2 weighs around 40kgs on it's own, with another 40kg for 250 rounds of ammo (approx 150g each); add the armor and whatever else you throw on there, and no, you're not going to be running around at 8m/s


The main problem is that you're taking what is essentially a load lifter and wanting to use it for combat, which it is not designed for. And pretty much everything in Attitude is way off the reservation anyway.

[MajorTwitch]

Most excellent points.
A)Vehicle Damage:
"Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rollingBody + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied. Note that since many vehicles will have large Body dice pools, gamemasters are encouraged to use the trade-in-dice-for-hits rule (4 dice equals 1 hit) to simplify tests. Your average tank, for example, will automatically get 4 hits on a Body Test by trade in, so there is no point in rolling unless the hits needed are higher than 4."
Is that not basically hardened armor? Or I am misunderstanding that?
B-D)So if you concealed the gun mount or removed it and switched to concealed armor. Saying that exoskeleton completely encases the user, which it is unclear if it does or doesn't. Use Custom Look and maybe clothes to create something that would be less eye catching? The lack of running is understandable, although not rule specified.
E) Yeah, HMGs are very heavy. The gun and mount was more a of side feature that could be used. It would allow people to use high recoil weapons without the recoil. You may need gunning to do so... kind of a grey area there. Anyhow, nothing stops you from using normal fire arms in the exoskeleton?

[Michael Chandra]

It has the effect, yes, Since both vehicles and Hardened Armor basically go "if it'd be stun, it doesn't break through / doesn't apply because cars don't care about stun". Only in SR5 does a difference arise.