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"Ten things I hate about Shadowrun" at Look, Robot.

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Lusis

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« Reply #15 on: <04-10-14/0936:49> »
My group moved to playing SR with Fate rules, and our games have lost the "flavor" of SR. It's just a cookie-cutter system in that it attempts to resolve every situation the same way IMO.

The problem with our group and the original SR rules is a player who has to rules-lawyer the game to death...just to prove how bad the SR rules are. IMO if the rules are unclear or don't fit the situation, resolve it reasonably, move on, and do more in-depth research later.
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jim1701

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« Reply #16 on: <04-10-14/1033:32> »
My group moved to playing SR with Fate rules, and our games have lost the "flavor" of SR. It's just a cookie-cutter system in that it attempts to resolve every situation the same way IMO.

The problem with our group and the original SR rules is a player who has to rules-lawyer the game to death...just to prove how bad the SR rules are. IMO if the rules are unclear or don't fit the situation, resolve it reasonably, move on, and do more in-depth research later.

I prefer to think of FATE as a play doh system that can be shaped any way you want.  But it is a very soft RPG system with virtually no crunch at all.  I like the FATE system (at least the Dresden Files RPG version) and it still drives me nuts sometimes. 

SlowDeck

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« Reply #17 on: <04-10-14/1057:05> »
One of the most popular roleplaying games on the market right now is Pathfinder. Pathfinder is a ruleset descended from DnD that, at current, almost makes the tax code look simple by comparison just due to the rules bloat it has suffered and is continuing to suffer. DnD has, repeatedly, reached the point where you almost need a legal degree just to understand all of the rules and how they interact.

Well, just to be clear, I don't care for Pathfinder or D&D3.5. So while the blogger might not be logistically consistent in his viewpoints, I'm very much a "less is more" guy when it comes to rules. Shadowrun gets a pass because I love it, but... yeesh. It's the messiest game I still make an effort to play, by a wide margin.

I was one of those guys that actually was pleased by the shift from D&D3.5 to 4e. *dodges a volley of tomatoes*

Unfortunately, DnD 4E is a great example of just how wrong the blogger is on his claim that games are shifting towards simpler rulesets and that more complex games are dinosaurs. While DnD 4E was a great simplified rule system, it ultimately was an epic failure for WotC on the financial front and is one of the primary reasons why Pathfinder is so successful.

Savage Worlds is a great game system intended to take the place of Gurps... but the only thing I can get most people to say about it is they play it only for the Deadlands setting. Plus, that system has already hit a problem area: While its simplified rules are easy to run on the fly for a single genre, playing a game that combines genres can force one to create houserules or face a problem that the rules themselves can be contradictory or confusing. Plus, most settings for that system actually introduce new rules to make up for the fact the setting itself is actually too light in rules. The result is, ultimately, that Savage Worlds actually suffers from not having enough rules. This has led to it suffering a lack of coherency, which is one of the primary reasons I hear for people not adopting it. Which is sad, since Savage Worlds is actually a very good rule set.

But, meh. People will be people. They'll demand a ruleset that is complicated so they can do everything they can imagine, then complain about the rules being complicated and demand a simple ruleset before refusing to play the simple ruleset because it's too simple.
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jim1701

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« Reply #18 on: <04-10-14/1106:13> »
I think setting is key.  People will put up with the worst rules in existence if they like the world they are set in well enough and the best rule set ever made might not get played if it does not have a setting that attracts players to it. 

Of course what SlowDeck says also applies.  A lot of people are just going to want what they don't have until they get it then wish things could go back to the way they were.   ???

Namikaze

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« Reply #19 on: <04-10-14/1155:21> »
I don't really care what one blogger says.  What bothers me is that other people will read what he wrote and take it to be gospel.  People are impressionable that way.
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Automaton

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« Reply #20 on: <04-10-14/1234:56> »
This is a bizarre objection. Have you played RPGs other than SR or D&D? Honest question. I can think of dozens of games that fit that profile. Most modern games, even - Savage Worlds, FATE, Tri-Stat, nWoD, Cortex+, even good ol' Cyberpunk 2020 has vastly cleaner, neater and more refined rules than SR5 does.

The reason he is not giving an example there is because anyone who has actually played many RPGs will absolutely not need one. If you want to refute any of my examples, I'm going to expect details, by the way, not hand-waving.

Yes I have Gmed and played LOADS of different rpgs, and no I don't agree. More streamlined maybe, but no where near what he implies.
Cyberpunk 2020 cleaner? You're saying it doesn't have massive stat blocks? It has all the lists you'd expect of a game like that (which by the way is not a bad thing) Just one look at the chracter sheet of a Cyberpunk 2020 char says enough when you compare it to one of a SR5 or D&D char sheet. Savage World, yes it is a cleaner game, it's also and that is my personal opinion ofcourse, not a very good game. WoD is indeed much cleaner but that has left massive holes in it. I loved that game to for many many years, but it is not less complicated then SR5 because allthough it does have a "ligher" system, it is also prone to crash when you use the (suppositly compatible) different parts of the WoD together (as in for instance Mage and Wraith). FATE, Cortex+ and Tri-Stat I've never played so I can't reply to that.

You want to defend the guy? sure go ahead, but just by his comments to other reader's replies which contained such fanciful words such as and I quote (sorry for the bad language it's not mine) "fuck you" It tells me that this is not a honest review of the product but a rant, what is basically what this blog is all about.

Edit: Took a look at FATE and it looks interesting, will definetly take a closer look.
Oh and no, English is not my native language so yes there may be plenty of spelling errors and the likes in the above text.
« Last Edit: <04-10-14/1238:32> by Automaton »

gmoney999

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« Reply #21 on: <04-10-14/1839:37> »
I actually really like the complexity of the rules in Shadowrun, but I can see how they can get in the way of good role playing if you let them. 

Its kind of like how in miniature games there are those people that like making army lists more than they actually like playing.  Yup, I'm one of those.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #22 on: <04-10-14/1845:57> »
See, I'm lazy, I take shortcuts when the complexity gets in the way. And Shadowrun allows for that much better than some other systems.

I really dislike this topic title, every time I see it I think of "Ten things I hate about you" & The Taming Of The Shrew. I liked that movie. -.-
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #23 on: <04-11-14/0041:07> »
I will confess; I started out by reading the blog post, continued by skimming it, then pretty much jumped straight to the end and saw no real conclusion.  Why?  Well, because the guy is complaining about a game that is intrinsically not a fluff piece.  Is SR fairly rules-heavy?  In my opinion, only moderately so - I actually personally dislike 4e and 5e, because they dumbed the damn thing down.  I play Shadowrun because I want to be able to spend 80k on a motorcycle that squeezes every bit of accel and decel out of the technology - then makes every bit that I've squeezed out squeal like a pig because I'm abusing it.  I play Shadowrun because I want to know that you can't hit with a spell what you can't see, or that you can hit with a spell what you can see - because x100 binoculars and a high tower are a mage's best friend.  I want the granularity that 3e offered, the decision between a methane-driven engine and a high-output electric motor, as well as all the other odd little things.  Shadowrun has weird corners, and odd rules.  He complains about 'treading water' because in SR, there is a very good chance that you could be out on the Sound, and your boat takes an AVM and goes under - and staying alive is a matter of how long you can tread water before your pals get out to you ('cause y'know, this is Shadowrun, and you can call them on your cell phone, instead of them needing to lower a boat in 7th Sea to pick you up (a matter of a few minutes) or the GM saying 'well, your ship sank, so you're all dead, roll up new characters').  In SR, as in many other games, rules get created for clear potential events.

If I want to play Rules Light, I'll go play or adapt the Feng Shui system, or play FATE, or whatever - I'll focus on making an action movie, and I'll reward my players for great plot points and cool kung-fu-movie actions and crap like that.  I'll Pink Mohawk the hell out of it, and you'll be mowing down scores of mooks.  I don't play Shadowrun for that, and if Grant feels he has to be able to pick up the game and in five seconds play, well, good for Mr. Grant - go play a hand-out character at a con, because y'know, at a con we're okay with that.  Shadowrun, however, is not a goddamn beer-and-pretzels game, is it?  It's a game that can have some pretty serious bookkeeping, and sure, like Michael C says, you can do that with Shadowrun - a lot.  But you can load it all up, too, and the people who are going to enjoy Shadowrun are the same ones who enjoy Battlelords of the 23rd Century and HERO system and AD&D 3.5e / Pathfinder and, y'know, a big bunch of other games out there.

I don't mind him not liking Shadowrun.  I don't mind him liking Rules-Lite popcorn movie games, where the most modifying you see is maybe two or three notes, and the GM throws out a 'uh, they don't have a ruling for this, so go ahead and roll X' for about 85% of the non-straightforward-combat things you walk into.  I DO mind him being a dick about it - but hey, it's a blog, and that's what blogging is about - being a dick.  Congratulations, Mr. Grant, you've succeeded in the internet.

Now someone go sic some black IC on this sucker.
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Slide_Eurhetemec

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« Reply #24 on: <04-11-14/0821:29> »
Unfortunately, DnD 4E is a great example of just how wrong the blogger is on his claim that games are shifting towards simpler rulesets and that more complex games are dinosaurs. While DnD 4E was a great simplified rule system, it ultimately was an epic failure for WotC on the financial front and is one of the primary reasons why Pathfinder is so successful.

Please don't spread myths :(

First off, it was not an "epic failure" financially. It didn't do as well as 3E did, but it did well - in large part because of a massive revenue stream people overlook - the DDI - which alone makes more money every single month than any given sourcebook would (net, not necessarily gross - but net is what matters). So that's a myth.

Second off, the simplification is not why it was less successful - a combination of two factors was, neither of which had ever been the case before:

1) The OGL meant that Pathfinder could exist, legally untroubled, and simply continue the previous edition. This had never happened before. If people could have legally, easily, happily made 1E books when 2E came out, 1E would have survived a lot longer, perhaps indefinitely. Similarly, if 3rd parties had been able to legally, easily continue the 2E line, 3E wouldn't have been nearly as big a hit. Only with the OGL and the so-called "OSR" (which was in large part thanks to the OGL) was Pathfinder viable.

2) Terrible, terrible, awful, insulting marketing which drove players directly into the arms of Pathfinder. Again, no previous edition change had marketing that insulting or dumb, which gave so many people incorrect opinions about 4E, still repeated to this day (not least that it's "like an MMO" - nonsense, if it's like any computer game, it's Final Fantasy Tactics - it's actually most like Earthdawn).

We'll see how well Pathfinder does post-5E D&D. I'm guess it'll do okay for a year or two, then gradually fade out, as Paizo quietly release adventures for 5E (probably dual-statted for Pathfinder and 5E, at least at first), and possibly Paizo sourcebooks for 5E, too (given 5E will have a 3E-like OGL, we hear).

But, meh. People will be people. They'll demand a ruleset that is complicated so they can do everything they can imagine, then complain about the rules being complicated and demand a simple ruleset before refusing to play the simple ruleset because it's too simple.

Truth.

My group moved to playing SR with Fate rules, and our games have lost the "flavor" of SR. It's just a cookie-cutter system in that it attempts to resolve every situation the same way IMO.

It's really a risk with any system change, that you'll lose some of the flavour. I tried going from crunchy to crunchy translating Rifts to GURPS, and still lost most of the flavour, just because the system is so different. FATE is also a really malleable system, as others have said, and unless the DM moulds it right (which takes a lot of work and knowledge!) it won't necessarily give the desired result.

You want to defend the guy? sure go ahead, but just by his comments to other reader's replies which contained such fanciful words such as and I quote (sorry for the bad language it's not mine) "fuck you" It tells me that this is not a honest review of the product but a rant, what is basically what this blog is all about.

That guy posted anonymously and was basically trolling. So the guy responded with hostility. I don't think it was great, but I think the post he was responding to was really dumb and insulting, so... at worst he was equal - and it was his blog, not an open forum.

As for CP2020, it is cleaner - I have sheets for it - statblocks are smaller, the only place it equals SR in messiness is with it's hackers (I can't remember what they're called), and FNFF is about as slow as SR combat - but features more dice-rolling and less obsessively looking up obscure and needlessly complex rules sub-sets. Certainly most players would rather be rolling dice than looking up rules or trying to remember exactly how much their recoil penalty is. It's crunchier than, say, Savage Worlds, but it's short of SR5 by a long shot, especially with Run and Gun, which adds gigantic amounts of crunch (and I'm not talking equipment), most of which is needless.

I will confess; I started out by reading the blog post, continued by skimming it, then pretty much jumped straight to the end and saw no real conclusion.  Why?  Well, because the guy is complaining about a game that is intrinsically not a fluff piece.  Is SR fairly rules-heavy?  In my opinion, only moderately so - I actually personally dislike 4e and 5e, because they dumbed the damn thing down.  I play Shadowrun because I want to be able to spend 80k on a motorcycle that squeezes every bit of accel and decel out of the technology - then makes every bit that I've squeezed out squeal like a pig because I'm abusing it.  I play Shadowrun because I want to know that you can't hit with a spell what you can't see, or that you can hit with a spell what you can see - because x100 binoculars and a high tower are a mage's best friend.  I want the granularity that 3e offered, the decision between a methane-driven engine and a high-output electric motor, as well as all the other odd little things.  Shadowrun has weird corners, and odd rules.

I get where you're coming from here, but the problem isn't the gear rules.

The problem is the rules-rules. Gear rules which distinguish between an electric and a methane engine are fine - they'll rarely come up and it's okay to reference them.

The big problems SR has are with needlessly complex rules-rules, which DON'T add much real granularity or interest, but do add a big overhead in terms of numbers you need to remember and reference. SR has particular problems here because it doesn't control how players interact with these rules - it's easy for a player to accidentally create a character which interacts with a lot of complex rules, or to be forced into doing so because of the archetype he's interested in. The point with the treading water rules is that they are needless complex, not that they exist. They could be more simple, and achieve the same or better result.

Put it another way - SR has complexity in the wrong places, and even when it's in the right places. Dead Man's Trigger and Recoil are good examples - Dead Man's Trigger should not be that complex - it should be "If you blow your Edge you get to take one last action, but no movement", end of story. Recoil is a very tedious system to track which just doesn't matter to a lot of characters.

This is the problem SR has - it's all in the subsystems. The basic rules are not needlessly complex. They feature a lot of rolling, but they're elegant, memorable, and work. But the subsystems? Ugggggh. That's where SR falls to pieces. They're complicated, they're badly written (the Rigger chapter, for example is a disaster, and many questions about how Riggers and Drones work remain unanswered), and they slow the game down to a crawl.

Also, what game IS a "fluff piece"? There's no such thing. A "fluff piece" is a little piece in a newspaper written solely to boost or praise someone. That doesn't apply to games, at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

SlowDeck

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« Reply #25 on: <04-11-14/1035:53> »
Unfortunately, DnD 4E is a great example of just how wrong the blogger is on his claim that games are shifting towards simpler rulesets and that more complex games are dinosaurs. While DnD 4E was a great simplified rule system, it ultimately was an epic failure for WotC on the financial front and is one of the primary reasons why Pathfinder is so successful.

Please don't spread myths :(

First off, it was not an "epic failure" financially. It didn't do as well as 3E did, but it did well - in large part because of a massive revenue stream people overlook - the DDI - which alone makes more money every single month than any given sourcebook would (net, not necessarily gross - but net is what matters). So that's a myth.

Second off, the simplification is not why it was less successful - a combination of two factors was, neither of which had ever been the case before:

1) The OGL meant that Pathfinder could exist, legally untroubled, and simply continue the previous edition. This had never happened before. If people could have legally, easily, happily made 1E books when 2E came out, 1E would have survived a lot longer, perhaps indefinitely. Similarly, if 3rd parties had been able to legally, easily continue the 2E line, 3E wouldn't have been nearly as big a hit. Only with the OGL and the so-called "OSR" (which was in large part thanks to the OGL) was Pathfinder viable.

2) Terrible, terrible, awful, insulting marketing which drove players directly into the arms of Pathfinder. Again, no previous edition change had marketing that insulting or dumb, which gave so many people incorrect opinions about 4E, still repeated to this day (not least that it's "like an MMO" - nonsense, if it's like any computer game, it's Final Fantasy Tactics - it's actually most like Earthdawn).

We'll see how well Pathfinder does post-5E D&D. I'm guess it'll do okay for a year or two, then gradually fade out, as Paizo quietly release adventures for 5E (probably dual-statted for Pathfinder and 5E, at least at first), and possibly Paizo sourcebooks for 5E, too (given 5E will have a 3E-like OGL, we hear).

It's not a myth. Just because it made money and actually did okay for itself doesn't mean that it wasn't still an epic failure on the financial side. Saying otherwise is actually the myth in this case; it was enough of a failure that WotC actually dropped all book production for 4E without even having a new edition planned. That spells "epic failure" in any market, and more so in the case of a game system where having an entire edition just dropped like that has never happened before.

How do I know the disaster was financial? Because of everything you said about Pathfinder.

Also, I will say I doubt Pathfinder will continue to be a success. For one thing, go count how many books; just the ones considered part of the core rules already are numerous and over $100 (assuming you're buying PDFs) in investment just to have the complete set. Setting books are easily another $300. Overall, Pathfinder has hit the point where it's suffering massive rules bloat, class bloat, and has a setting that pretty much is beyond the price range of most people to really get into. The game is soon reaching a point where it either needs a new edition or it might fail. And there's only so much of a lack of change people will accept in a new edition before they complain, and they'll always complain about changes... So, I suspect Pathfinder won't be much of a force much longer just due to how the game is designed.
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Slide_Eurhetemec

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« Reply #26 on: <04-11-14/1043:49> »
It's not a myth. Just because it made money and actually did okay for itself doesn't mean that it wasn't still an epic failure on the financial side.

It really does mean that. Seriously. Otherwise you devalue "epic failure" to mean anything less than a big success. :) Which is fine, but a pretty strange definition. I would say you could never "do okay" and be an "epic failure".

SlowDeck

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« Reply #27 on: <04-11-14/1057:46> »
It's not a myth. Just because it made money and actually did okay for itself doesn't mean that it wasn't still an epic failure on the financial side.

It really does mean that. Seriously. Otherwise you devalue "epic failure" to mean anything less than a big success. :) Which is fine, but a pretty strange definition. I would say you could never "do okay" and be an "epic failure".

Here's a list of products that prove otherwise:

New Coke
N64
Wii U
Pepsi Clear
Dragonriders of Pern (video game)
Most MMOs
John Carter (even naming this movie makes bile rise)

Every one of those products actually sold well enough to have permanent fans. John Carter, for example, actually made $234 million world-wide. Yet every one of those products was considered a failure, and to have sold badly. They were definitely considered financial failures due to the lack of sales, despite the fact most of them actually made back the amount of money invested in creating them. It's the lack of profits that are the issue.

Whether or not either of us agrees with the idea that something can do okay for itself in sales and still be a financial flop is moot; the fact remains that, for the most part, it is true. Just ask Nintendo, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, movie producers, video game companies, WotC...
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #28 on: <04-11-14/1103:45> »
Oh cool surely this is the one thread on the internet, after, what, 7 years?  That someone will post that awesome sales data to prove which edition did better then the other.

.....right?

Also, Shadowrun fan != heavy crunch fan.  I rather like Shadowrun!  I think it could absolutely do with less crunch.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #29 on: <04-11-14/1111:21> »
Nah. We're too busy arguing about terminology usage about a piece of terminology that lacks standard usage or definition within the very industries that are being referred to.

I don't think anyone actually cares which edition did better  :P
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