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[SR5] Does quickening end up being unbalancing?

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mrcatman

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« on: <02-27-14/1706:04> »
Just looking for advice from you experienced pros here on whether or not quickening eventually becomes a balance-breaker.

We've got a PC that took Priority D in attributes, spread out evenly (so very average stats for the race, like 3s/4s for human). He started with MAG 7 (from exceptional attribute positive quality), and with 11 spells he eventually quickens; armor, combat sense, increase reflexes and all 8 increase attribute spells. He spent his first 13 karma to get Initiate Grade 1 (quickening metamagic) and his next 11 karma to sustain all 11 of those spells (spending 1 karma each). He spent plenty of time (and edge) during the character's downtime to keep recasting these spells before quickening (to maximize hits), which comes to (say) roughly 7 hits per spell (on Force 7 to Force 10 spells).

After this 24 karma, this character already has the trappings of uber sauce, being close to (or at) augmented attribute maximums (natural +4) for all 8 stats, and nice armor/defense/initiative. And thus far, the PC appears to be reasonably safe from losing these spells (and the karma invested) from dispelling and astral intersections.

The dispeller's dice pools seem to be around 12-15 dice (if they even have counterspelling, which many don't seem to have) vs. the PC's 15-18 dice (MAG 7, Force 7 to 10, +1 karma/quickening). With the PC's edge added in, he has been able to keep things running. Add the fact that mages are supposed to be rare to begin with, and its not like awakened NPCs are going to be showing up every fight to dispell (presuming they even have counterspelling). And I'm not trying to go out of my way to take this PCs benefits away. I like the concept of quickening.

For astral intersections, I'm assuming Force 6 or Force 7 wards would be considered fairly decent against starting characters. Those would have 12 or 14 dice, vs. the PC's 17 dice (MAG 7 + 10 CHA). The PC has been able to handle this, and toss in edge if it gets close.

Now let's fast-forward well beyond the karma we have now to when the PC is a high level initiate and has (say) a MAG rating of 11 and a spellcasting pool of 25 or better. So this mage now recasts and requickens all these spells at higher force with more hits, making it that much less likely for them to be dispelled or disrupted... and giving very large boosts to armor/defense/initiative.

I'm certainly not saying this PC is better than everything else, but I'm struck by the many things this guy has, and it just smacks of being too good in too many areas.

Are you experiencing any of this?
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1711:26> by mrcatman »

Zilfer

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« Reply #1 on: <02-27-14/1731:38> »
I'm still reading up on my 5e material but in 4e if they went through wards that could be a problem.... Also Quickened spells are on Astral right? A mage who has heard of this guy being lit up like a Christmas tree in astral can take his time from astral trying to dispel his spells. Not sure the mage would notice at first....

Though he did spend karma for it, so punishing it might be a bit out there. If it becomes too much to handle you could always talk to him about it and how you feel. Probably not the answer your looking for but someone will be by soon to answer with more knowledge I think.  ;D
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <02-27-14/1735:57> »
There are a few problems with Quickening, such as the hunt for good hits and the massive Force that makes it hard for them to get killed. This has the downside of that a GM has to suddenly use a LOT of wards, and HTR response for someone walking around town with enough spells to fight an army active (yes, people can see how many auras are on you when astral-perceiving you and cops won't trust it), which gets in the way of other proper approaches.

There was a debate on it a while ago and we discussed a few possible houserules to balance out Quickening.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=14825.0

My own idea is not allowing someone to roll for Quickened Spells, having them buy hits instead. Also no overcasting, and potentially a limit on how many spells they can have Quickened equal to (Magic+InitationGrade)/2. Given how it are spells that have to last, it's reasonable to declare the mana field can only be pushed so far and is more average in effect.

By the way, you say Edge when it gets close. Given how every spell has to roll simultaneously, a single good ward roll has great chances at destroying multiple spells. Even at 1/3 chance at 5+ hits, the 11 spells then would on average have 3 of them fail the test. That is a really big danger of promptly losing karma.
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mrcatman

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« Reply #3 on: <02-27-14/1739:51> »
I'm still reading up on my 5e material but in 4e if they went through wards that could be a problem....

The wards don't seem to be much of a problem (see original post above).

Also Quickened spells are on Astral right? A mage who has heard of this guy being lit up like a Christmas tree in astral can take his time from astral trying to dispel his spells.

To my understanding, there is disagreement on these forums on whether or not all those quickened spells are truly lit up like that on the astral. But I'm hopeful this thread doesn't get bogged down in that aspect, because it's not really what I'm concerned about.

Though he did spend karma for it, so punishing it might be a bit out there.

I totally agree, which is why I'm not specifically trying to take away his benefits. But it does still smack of being too good.
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1749:48> by mrcatman »

Zilfer

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« Reply #4 on: <02-27-14/1743:24> »
I'm still reading up on my 5e material but in 4e if they went through wards that could be a problem....

The wards don't seem to be much of a problem (see original post above).

Also Quickened spells are on Astral right? A mage who has heard of this guy being lit up like a Christmas tree in astral can take his time from astral trying to dispel his spells.

To my understanding, there is disagreement on these forums on whether or not all those quickened spells are truly lit up like that on the astral. But I'm hopeful this thread doesn't get bogged down in that aspect, because it's not really what I'm concerned about.

Though he did spend karma for it, so punishing it might be a bit out there.

I totally agree, which is why I'm not specifically trying to take away his benefits. But it does still smack of being too good.

Yeah I was just throwing out possibilities from my perspective. I'm unaware of any arguments, thus far since I am JUST back after about a year or two away and I'm just now starting up a 5e game since we grabbed the book. I'm curious as to whether I was still right on those topics which is why I mentioned them because I've noticed quiet a bit of difference between 4e and 5e. :)
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

mrcatman

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« Reply #5 on: <02-27-14/1749:58> »
There are a few problems with Quickening, such as the hunt for good hits and the massive Force that makes it hard for them to get killed. This has the downside of that a GM has to suddenly use a LOT of wards, and HTR response for someone walking around town with enough spells to fight an army active (yes, people can see how many auras are on you when astral-perceiving you and cops won't trust it), which gets in the way of other proper approaches.

As always, MC has a great way of summarizing things.

My own idea is not allowing someone to roll for Quickened Spells, having them buy hits instead. Also no overcasting, and potentially a limit on how many spells they can have Quickened equal to (Magic+InitationGrade)/2. Given how it are spells that have to last, it's reasonable to declare the mana field can only be pushed so far and is more average in effect.

Have you tried this in game play yet? I'm curious how it played out.

By the way, you say Edge when it gets close. Given how every spell has to roll simultaneously, a single good ward roll has great chances at destroying multiple spells.

You lost me on this one. I didn't see anything in the rules saying all spells roll simultaneously in such a way that it limits the normal rules of using edge once per "specific test." It seems to say you simply make opposed rolls for each astral form. Isn't each of those its own specific test?

Ah, I think I get what you're saying. The ward rolls once (as a single astral form) against all other astral forms that astrally intersect with it; and should the ward roll tons of hits... bam.
« Last Edit: <02-27-14/1752:33> by mrcatman »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <02-27-14/1801:41> »
Correct, it isn't a serial resist where once one spell succeeds, the ward no longer works, but a parallel resist, so the more spells, the bigger the chance one fails, and if the ward rolls well then ouch.
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mrcatman

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« Reply #7 on: <02-27-14/1826:00> »
One thing that keeps bugging me is that this improved attribute spells + quickening tactic turned the CharGen Priority for Attributes into something you can ignore (a dump priority), because the character now gets his crazy attributes via spells. So his Magic Priority was suddenly playing 2 roles now (spells and attributes). This disrupts the balance in the priority system.

And in my humble opinion, the quickening of armor/combat sense/attribute boosts/reflexes totally tramples on what the pure adept should be better at across the board.

My own idea is not allowing someone to roll for Quickened Spells, having them buy hits instead. Also no overcasting, and potentially a limit on how many spells they can have Quickened equal to (Magic+InitationGrade)/2. Given how it are spells that have to last, it's reasonable to declare the mana field can only be pushed so far and is more average in effect.

Are you allowing bound spirits to use "aid sorcery" to contribute to dice pool prior to buying hits? I'm assuming not.

So using your idea here, a character with 16 dice (MAG 7, spellcasting 6, health spell specialization, rating 1 Power Foci), can buy 4 hits, cast at Force 7 and quicken 4 spells at once (if MAG 7 and Initiate 1). Say that comes out to +4 armor, +4 defense, +4 initiative, +2d6 more initiative dice and +4 to one attribute. That seems more appropriate, but might be weakening it a hair too much?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #8 on: <02-27-14/1840:56> »
I would allow Aid Sorcery, though for Increase Attribute spells they won't need it.

Even a Force 1 Sustaining Focus costs more than those spells combined. And with Increase Attribute Spells, you can't even use Force 1 SFs. So Quickening is well worth the karma even under limitations.
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mrcatman

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« Reply #9 on: <02-27-14/1844:56> »
I would allow Aid Sorcery...

Are you allowing them to bind spirits of 2x MAG rating for this purpose? That seems to break things again.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <02-27-14/1853:05> »
Tough call. Overbinding is quite risky. I'd have to run the full math.
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Reaver

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« Reply #11 on: <02-28-14/0209:17> »
Quickening is a double edged sword for a mage.


The advantage, we have all seen. what with the host of spells that add great buffs to a mage.


The disadvantages are also large, if not directly spelled out. I will list a few below:


Social:
Some spells have an obvious effect (like the armor spell) which can be rather unsettling to the general population. Especially in a good area of town (Zone B and up), and unsettled people call the police. A city isn't a Vacuum, and while magic is rare, those that have it generally also have "power". Meaning they have good paying jobs, live in good areas of town. It also means they have a chance to spot a mage running quickened spells.. and rat him out to the police (again!). Police forces employ a host of spirits and astrally projecting mages that patrol the city, assisting other officers in the line of duty. Which means, one of the spirits or projecting mages have an extremely high chance of sporting the quickened mage, as his spell enhanced aura makes him stand out from other awakened, let alone the teeming masses of mundane.

So.... does the Mage have a SIN? What quality is it? Is he registered as awakened on his SIN? Does he have a licence for an (R) rated quickened spells WITH a good reason why he needs them running? (and possibly a permit to run them) Does he have a license to practice magic?


Basically, he is making his own life a living hell as every time he tries to go anywhere important in the city, he is running in problems due to his quickened spells. Now if he has the right permits, licences and alibi he might be able to get away with all this with a simple SIN challenge (meaning no game play effect, as the check takes less then 5 seconds and could be done from blocks away.... but again fake SIN test time...) But that doesn't stop individual shop owners or businesses from refusing to do business with him. I mean really, manatech is getting to the point that detecting magic is getting cheap (AKA Glo-wand!), and the mage just "glows" with it, (his own awakened nature, plus the quickened spell(s), plus foci). Important places like high end stores, casinos, corporations, etc just have a mage on staff to give "glowies" a once over, and thus deny him entrance. ("If someone looks like they are expecting trouble, that means they are going to start trouble. So they can be someplace else with their trouble")

In short, he is attracting attention.

Karma intensive.

When one thinks about the level of security in the 2070s and the dystopia, coupled together with territorial fracturing, he could be denied entrance to large parts of the city (each on an individual basis) unless he "drops" his quickened spells. That means he has just lost that karma, and has to re-spend that karma to re -quicken those spells at a later date. Dropping a spell could also be the only option for a mage trying to evade capture as well since (as stated above) the quickened spells make him stand out and "unique" in astral space. Quickened spells can be dispelled. It may not work every time, or every tenth time, but even if it works once every twenty times, it still costs karma to re quicken that spell.

Some places, like banks, federal and corporate buildings will be warded (or partially warded). So now the mage has the problem of either risk having his quickened spell collapse, or dismiss the spell, or risk destroying the ward (and alerting the mage who set it instantly). He can try to "slip" past the ward, but this get tricky, and again can lead to suspisious behavior, thus the social element (again). This also makes his "off the clock" activities limited... no going to the museum or art gallery as they would be warded up. No recon for that mage has his odd antics while slipping a ward (if he's not glowing from a magical effect) kinda draw attention.


Hard to Hide from the First rule of Shadowrun.

Face it, when you are all magically glowey from magic, it's hard not to get tagged with the label "mage".

The FIRST run of shadowrun is? <waits for you to say it...>

"GEEK THE MAGE FIRST"

So that means when combat starts, everyone shoots at him, and shoots him till he stops moving. Gangers and deadbeats, donut cops and mallrats are not an issue, any mage will mop the floor with this trash. It's when the HTR team with magical and astral back up shows up that the mage is dead. Seriously. He's dead. I don't what spells he's got quickened, Once the "pros" come out and focus on him, he is going down. AND the sad thing is, he did it to himself, by standing out and making himself that target. Once the HTR teams comes out, they also tend not to stop. (It has probably become a point of pride and revenge for the cops at this point :D)




the other points have been brought up :P

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Ryo

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« Reply #12 on: <02-28-14/1634:39> »
First and foremost, augmented maximum is not the natural max +4, it's whatever your current attribute is +4. So he can keep a maximum of 4 hits on his Increase Attribute spells, and if he's at 3s across the board, all his stats max out at 7. That's nothing to sneeze at, but he's not going to be able to recast at a later date and get higher attributes like you suggested. He's already at his limits.

Secondly, he just wasted 8 spells doing that. As spells cost 5 karma each to learn, he blew the equivalent of 40 karma for 8 spells he plans to cast once, ever, and then is never going to use again, since he already quickened them. The only use they have now is if he does lose his quickened spells to a dispel or a ward, so they're just taking up space on his character sheet, and limiting his effectiveness as a mage since he has significantly fewer spells than the next magician would.

Thirdly, if he's quickening Armor then he's an idiot. That spell is described as creating an obvious glowing force field around your body, so there is no hiding the fact that he is a magician who's looking for some trouble, since he is visibly and noticeably glowing, even to mundane eyes. He might as well be wearing full body armor at all times, while walking down the street or grabbing snacks at the stuffer shack, for the amount of undue attention that will attract.

I personally don't really see Quickening as unbalancing, since its so karma intensive and can be more trouble than its worth without metamagics from 4th edition (Extended Masking/Spell Masking).

Raunalyn

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« Reply #13 on: <02-28-14/1708:55> »
A mage with that many spells on him that are quickened is an astral beacon. If they are regularly abusing this, I'd make it to where powerful free spirits start showing up to investigate. Some of them may not be that friendly.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: <02-28-14/1747:12> »
I personally don't really see Quickening as unbalancing, since its so karma intensive and can be more trouble than its worth without metamagics from 4th edition (Extended Masking/Spell Masking).
It's less karma-intensive than getting the spells and sustaining them through Foci.
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