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On The Subject of Negative Qualities

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Triskavanski

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« Reply #30 on: <02-14-14/0115:56> »
My mage took a negative quality Allergy: Mild Bean Curd, initially a joke, and reference to My Name is Bruce.

My Gm was like. "Whelp, you're keeping that. And everything is practically made out of bean curd in the future.. so increase the value to X."

Never before have I been so afraid of everything. I drank a soda and almost poisoned myself.


Its funny as well, I took incompetent Computers with Crazy cat lady, and my DM was like "Hey now, wait a moment, don't take that. You'll be gimped!" and I was the one who was like "Hey its suppose to be a disadvantage right? If I'm gimped, I know its working."

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #31 on: <02-14-14/0637:29> »
I accidentally managed to target three of my girlfriend's Negative Qualities in a single session. Whups... Though in my defense she decided to forfeit the 92.50% chance to pass her Composure Test.

Whelp, time to give the others more love and stop forgetting to target them. :)
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firebug

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« Reply #32 on: <02-14-14/0819:48> »
I admit I'm a bit more lax than I should be when it comes to negative qualities.  I prefer to ask my players to pick more constant-penalty ones or things like Incompetence.  If someone has something like an Allergy NQ, it just seems so meta to try and include it in a run.  Like...  It might come up once, or maybe twice, but shit like being allergic to wheat or gold...  Trying to find a way for that to come up where the one character with it is forced to deal with it would seem so out of place it'd be stupid.

Incompetence is often easier to include because it's big jump between "you know these would never come up for you" and "this could actually cause problems."  In particular, I see a lot of Incompetence (Influence) in characters who are supposed to be the rough, rude types who would struggle with that sort of thing, and social situations are harder to just baton-pass to someone else.  Not to say that the Ork going "Er- how about you ask the Elf that question?" isn't unheard of.

In particular though, I hate the Addiction quality.  Not only does it deal with really poorly written rules (the addiction rules), but it is so arbitrary and unlikely to come up in play.  By this I mean, unless I'm doing something very meta (oh hey, it happens that every run you go on is exactly two weeks away from when you last used that Mild Addiction substance) it's not really going to just come up during an actual session.  Plus, if any negative quality can bite someone in the ass later, it's an Addiction that can get worse and worse.

Save for maybe that In Debt quality from 4th...
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ZeConster

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« Reply #33 on: <02-14-14/0822:21> »
He can also politely veto the abusive build.
He can, but if it's over something as silly as a NQ, then the entire group has the right to flip him the bird and leave him without a group.
My bad - I assumed that since we were talking about the GM being polite, the players would also be so - not players who feel they're within their right to storm off if they don't get free Karma. Heck, if I had a group like that, I'm not sure I'd want to DM for them, since they'd just threaten to quit whenever they made an unreasonable demand and I declined, completely ruining the game for me.
« Last Edit: <02-14-14/0825:10> by ZeConster »

orcmeat

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« Reply #34 on: <02-14-14/0842:30> »
He can also politely veto the abusive build.

He can, but if it's over something as silly as a NQ, then the entire group has the right to flip him the bird and leave him without a group.


Something like that just isn't worth bothering with. Have a problem with it? Oh well, deal with it.

If the player decides to give the GM the finger over a clear abuse of the rules then he doesn't deserve to play, and if the rest of the group decides the player is in the right then they are a bunch of children. I would find a new group to GM for.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #35 on: <02-14-14/0906:53> »
He can also politely veto the abusive build.

He can, but if it's over something as silly as a NQ, then the entire group has the right to flip him the bird and leave him without a group.


Something like that just isn't worth bothering with. Have a problem with it? Oh well, deal with it.

If the player decides to give the GM the finger over a clear abuse of the rules then he doesn't deserve to play, and if the rest of the group decides the player is in the right then they are a bunch of children. I would find a new group to GM for.

^^

Couldn't agree more. If there's no mutual respect for the rules and the participants, I want nothing to do with said player or GM; we all presumably play the game to have fun...

Namikaze

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« Reply #36 on: <02-14-14/1029:41> »
It feels like this argument has gotten absurd.  Now we're getting into debating GM style, which varies widely from one table to another.  The only right way to GM is the way that makes the game fun at your table.
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Tuoweit

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« Reply #37 on: <02-14-14/1132:09> »
"Typical" seafood allergy is for prawn etc, not fish. Very few people are allergic to fish.

"Typical" sushi also often includes shellfish.  ;)

orcmeat

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« Reply #38 on: <02-14-14/1220:13> »
It feels like this argument has gotten absurd.  Now we're getting into debating GM style, which varies widely from one table to another.  The only right way to GM is the way that makes the game fun at your table.

Yes, but we are also discussing the spirit of the rules, which is also important. Are negative qualities a simple grab for karma or are they supposed to be things that expand gameplay.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #39 on: <02-14-14/1231:43> »
Yes, but we are also discussing the spirit of the rules, which is also important. Are negative qualities a simple grab for karma or are they supposed to be things that expand gameplay.

If that were true, I don't think the argument would have gotten so heated because GMs need to respect each other's tables.  But you're right, that is the question that should be discussed.

For my 2¥ worth, I think that Negative Qualities that are intended to be a part of gameplay will be allowed in my games.  If someone is never going to suffer the penalty of a negative quality, it seems absurd to give them the benefit.  The school of thought about taking negative qualities to earn karma during gameplay is one that I like.  It's from game systems like World of Darkness, which is a system that I like a lot.  The second school of thought is about making people get the benefit up front.  This is the system that Shadowrun runs with, and therefore it's the one that I use at my table.

I feel like the designers of Shadowrun built the quality system to give benefits and penalties in the long-term.  To give people extra karma for taking negative qualities seems unbalancing.  If a GM is going to say that a negative quality earns extra karma during play, they should also be prepared to reduce the up-front karma gain of these qualities.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #40 on: <02-15-14/2344:01> »
There is an old post titled "Antisocial characters" that goes on for sixteen pages with a lot of the debate centering on this exact subject. Several different opinions are put forth on how negative qualities or flaws should be handled, but I think the quote that reflects my position best is:

[quoteTaking a flaw isn't just saying "oh this is neat". It's saying "I like this and want you (implying the GM here) to make sure it's taken into account." Do you right up a complete background for a character and think, well it shouldn't come into play at all just because I wrote it? Do you raise skills and think, well I shouldn't use those new levels just because I raised them? Do you take edges and think, well this shouldn't come into play just because I bought it? Taking flaws should be answered just like the rest. They are on your character and should come into play.[/quote]

I end my games on cliffhangers most of the time. The first thing I do when I get home usually is to look over my copies of the character sheets and think of ways to bring characters skills, qualities (positive and negative), and contacts into play the next session. It's not metagaming, it's storycrafting based on what the players told me they wanted brought up in their character's stories. If the players don't want a quality to ever come up in relation to their character, they shouldn't take the quality. It's that simple. Kind of like how if the player doesn't want to play shadowrun, they shouldn't be playing shadowrun.

As far as how often and how forcibly negative qualities should be brought up, that is a question of play style. The same guy posted a play style guide that I found useful as well:
Quote
One thing you really have to nail down when you first start GMing a new system is what style of play you want, and what style of play your players want. Here's my general list of GM styles that I've played under/run:
God Mode: PCs rarely get scratched, they are practically gods.
Feather Duster: (Oh that tickles): PCs will occasionally take damage, but never more than a quarter of their health or they are considered seriously injured.
Action Movie: PCs will get shot up and hurt on a regular basis, but they don't die. When they hit 1/4 of their wound track left, they're horribly hurt.
Die Hard: PCs rarely die without a good dramatic reason, but they're used to walking away with one box of health and two rounds left in the gun.
Who's intestines am I tripping in: PCs die so often they're required to have multiple back up characters in case they "burn" through several in a session.

If your GM runs games in a play style that you don't enjoy, then you are never going to enjoy it. It doesn't mean he's playing the game wrong, it just means that you're playing the wrong game. I would fall in the Die Hard camp. While I wouldn't enjoy a WIaITI game, I think I would enjoy Feather Duster and God Mode games even less.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #41 on: <02-16-14/0012:34> »
All in all, the best bet is to take the carrot side of the "carrot and stick" approach when it comes to the Negative Qualities, I think. There should be a good return up front as incentive to take it, and give a reward of karma when the player brings up that he has the quality so that it can come up.

To constantly hammer the player's character with the quality is exactly the opposite. That is the "stick" approach and will only lead to hard feelings in the long run as the player begins to feel he's "being picked on by the cruel and merciless GM".
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Mithlas

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« Reply #42 on: <02-16-14/0026:27> »
If it is inappropriate for negative qualities to surface repeatedly, would it be equally inappropriate for positive qualities to be applied repeatedly?

The character is the one who, in the end, says "okay, this is the character I want to play". That includes the good and bad, with the focus on those varying as appropriate for dramatics as well as rule of fun.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #43 on: <02-16-14/0044:20> »
It's all about moderation.

I just find it horribly disturbing how many people on various forums and boards seem to say that they immediately think "Ooh! I can really mess with the player and screw them over big time there!" when they look at a list of qualities. This is, IMO, Adversarial GMing plain and simple.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #44 on: <02-16-14/0359:28> »
It's all about moderation.

I just find it horribly disturbing how many people on various forums and boards seem to say that they immediately think "Ooh! I can really mess with the player and screw them over big time there!" when they look at a list of qualities. This is, IMO, Adversarial GMing plain and simple.
Except that's only how you portray them.