[Karrth]

Hey all.

I've spent the past six months trying to get my players to switch from D&D/Pathfinder to Shadowrun 5e. I've been met with a mixed effect:
- One player dropped from the group. (he was tired of RPG's and wanted a break)
- player two and three has found SR5e very interesting and we had our first run this weekend.
- player four doens't want to switch.... And as a sort of comprimise I'm running a campaign for him and one of the other players via VTT but in pathfinder.

This puts me in a strange situation really, as I'm trying to make a group in shadowrun work with only two players and both of whom want's to play long range support. (One have made a Drone rigger the other has made a sniper.)

We had our first run this weekend and while it was fun I learned that I have no clue on how to make things challanging for them without making it impossible. They have no one in the group to do anything up close like opening doors, hacking a none-networked consol or just put the hurt on in melee.

So far the game has been about Horizon, with the players being a sort of "ghost agents" that act as covert trouble solvers. (think corp trained shadowrunners)

I have read the GM'ing section of the 5e rulebook but I've not found the answer there.

So how DO I challange them when the only thing they do is sit 1 mile away and wait?

Now I have to be honest, I'm not going to make an NPC pop up and have the skills for the situation they are facing (unless they hire them), nor do I like the idea of running 4 characters just to get a full team. I am probably doing it wrong but I just don't think it's realistic that just because the PC's don't have a skillset then they don't run into problems requireing that skillset.

To give you an example: The current run the characters are on a mission to eliminate a drug lord in the Amazona warzone.... They left with only minimum legwork done. They have a satalite picture of the targets mansion and that's it. So my question is.. Should I just continue with the mansion plans I have (lots of locks, cameras, guard dogs and of course a whole damn lot of hurt in the shape of AK93)?

[Dakka]

The Sniper can also pick up a Shotgun.  Not all problems can be solved at a mile distance.  Rigger and Gun-Fu is a pretty good duo combo.  The Rigger can branch out into hacking possibly and the Sniper can double as a face.  Think about running a High Life campaign if you can't find any more runners (pg 354-355 SR5).  With AABCC they should both be able to make very well rounded versatile characters with a ton of edge.  Consider maybe even using AABBE if they don't want a magic score.

While their preferred method may be to sit back and watch drones tear things apart through a sniper lens you should make it clear that plan won't always work.  The first time an attack chopper full of HTR goons descends from the sky onto the snipers position he will wish he had an Einfield AS-7. 

I am probably doing it wrong but I just don't think it's realistic that just because the PC's don't have a skillset then they don't run into problems requireing that skillset.

This goes directly against the "Opposition" section of Designing A Run in the GM chapter. (pg 338).  Will there be cameras and locks and what not? Sure, but an abundance of them will get frustrating quickly for your players.

To give you an example: The current run the characters are on a mission to eliminate a drug lord in the Amazona warzone.... They left with only minimum legwork done. They have a satalite picture of the targets mansion and that's it. So my question is.. Should I just continue with the mansion plans I have (lots of locks, cameras, guard dogs and of course a whole damn lot of hurt in the shape of AK93)?

This happens to be a mission that CAN be solved from a mile away.  Just learn his schedule, wait for him to appear, BAM - bullet to the brain case.  If he doesn't leave his compound things get trickier, but there is no reason to dillute the opposition.  Hacking isn't the only way to defeat locks or cameras, it's just one of the easiest.  In general tho, advice to every GM ever, go with the direction your PCs are heading.  If they want to try and Snipe him and have even a half decent idea of how to get him out in the open, go with it.  Their method of "defeating" the security they are not equipped to deal with is to bypass it, and there is nothing wrong with that.  Remember tho, one challenge should be getting the rifle into the country.  Just because it's licensed in the UCAS (or wherever) does not mean Amazonia boarder crossings will allow it into the country.

You ever hear the saying "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"?  If all you have are Sniper Rifles, everything looks like a target.  Encourage well rounded characters with at least a few ranks in Con and Etiquette.  Sniper should have Pistols as a backup, Rigger should have SOMETHING as a backup to Gunnery.  Pistols are nice and concealable.  If you go High Life there is no reason the 2 of them can't be a dynamic running team.  Wheels and the Hitman.  Even at normal level, just throw in a side of Face to the Sniper and a side of B&E or Hacker to the Rigger and everything should be fine.

[Belker]

This may be a little late for you, but I've found when introducing a group to a new game, it's usually helpful to start with a small, focused adventure. Use that as a shakedown to give everyone a chance to see how the rules work, and how their character fits into the team dynamic. Then, with new players, I've found it helpful to allow them to tweak their characters from their original builds, now that they have a better sense of what works and what doesn't.

You can also fill in with a couple of NPCs, though I wouldn't go beyond one or two, to cover at least some of the gaps. Add in an infiltration-oriented decker, perhaps assigned to them by their corporate masters, who has might just have his or her own agenda to pursue as well. NPC henchmen are a time-honored part of RPGs.

[Namikaze]

As much love as I have for Shadowrun, your group doesn't seem to fully embrace the idea of the game.  Rather than forcing your players to play something they may not fully endorse, I'd recommend sticking to whatever works.  A good gaming group that you have a lot of fun with isn't worth losing.

[RHat]

I am probably doing it wrong but I just don't think it's realistic that just because the PC's don't have a skillset then they don't run into problems requireing that skillset.

As far as realism goes, you need to keep in mind that in Shadowrun, characters aren't simply wandering around tackling whatever problem comes their way, or being sent to handle something because they're the only ones who can.  They're being sent in because it is believed that their skillset is a cost-effective way to solve the problem; accordingly, they won't be sent into a situation where it is known that their skillset is inappropriate.  Complications, however, can occur, and when they do things outside of their skillset may then become necessary.

I would highly recommend that you encourage the players to round out their characters a bit more, however.  A small team like that needs to be more generalized.

[Kanly]

Yeah try to "force" them to make a decker-rigger and a mystic gun adept, if the latter goes shaman and keeps an Increase Charisma sustained (focus) the attribute can go up to 7-9 so it won't need many skill points to cover the face role

Also, if you really want them to be well-rounded, consider giving them some money bonus, of which some can be converted to karma (for the awakened).

This of course takes much of the freedom of character creation away from the players. This might not be a problem, of course. The point is, you can definitely find a solution and have a fun game

[Grahm]

While I wouldn't avoid problems they can't solve, I would try to get the flavor with appropriate levels of difficulty.
I.e., if they have to go indoors, but your average security guard has 4-6 dice, the sniper doesn't need a sniper rifle to win.
If they have the right skills 1 or 2, give them locks they CAN pick with those skills, to encourage them to use them.
If they literally refuse to do anything but fire support, you either have to enjoy gming that, or else find something you all enjoy.

I.e., runs indoors, in tight spaces, et cetera.
Also: drone riggers should be wary of making army of drones, because, well, drones ain't cheap!
If it gets out of hand, you can always destroy a few.

I recommend avoiding rulesets they don't want to learn at first.
E.g. don't make a habit of hitting your drone rigger with top notch hackers swiping drones.  Helpless is bad.
If you do, put the hacker somewhere the sniper can get to him, so the solution is within their skill set.
"Everytime your drones get near that rooftop, they shut down and crash. Hmmm."

Personally, I think a 2 person team can work fine, with a little world building and appropriately chosen missions, and SELECT NPCs.  A hacker NPC whose clumsy, prone to draw attention to himself, and who needs to be on the front lines to be effective isn't just doing things for the characters, he's adding new objectives - protect and teach his sorry bum.  :-).

[Karrth]

thanks for the posts you guys have made. I has given me *a lot* to think about.

I guess I was just so stuck on the idea that there was only one way to play this game that I didn't look outside the box I made in my mind... I'll go back to square one and start over. 

[Dakka]

Good luck!  Also remember that rule 0 is everybody (including the GM) should be having fun.

[Tremodian]

It's a little tangential, but this thread, "How to Spice Up Combat," is full of great advice for GMing in general and combat in particular. A lot of it is centered around getting PCs out of their comfort zones.  http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13591.0

[Reiper]

One thing I've done in situations a little similar is also NPC out a role, I generally will NPC out the matrix just so I can do it quick and painlessly.

In 4e we had an AI doing most of our hacking for us, and it ended up being a major plot point down the line. And it allowed the GM to streamline the matrix while the rest of the team played.

[deepomega]

I'd add that in my experience, doing some social or logic type stuff can mix it up. Give them a mystery to solve - you can't gun or rig your way through it, and it doesn't have to be a TOUGH one. Forcing players to do stuff outside their build can be a way of keeping them on your toes, as long as you're careful with the dice pools. (E.g., have the rigger with no social skills be forced to lie his way out of a situation, then improvise when it goes wrong.) Only providing them with "good plans" can get boring!

[Bewilderbeast]

In my experience, GMs have always been scarce while players have not been. It might be different for you locally, but have you tried looking for a few more players to flesh out the Shadowrun group?

Otherwise, I say let them enjoy their long-range hijinks for a while. Maybe when an enemy combatant in a chameleon suit sneaks up behind their look out spot, though, they might get the message that they may need to vary their strategy.