[Insaniac99]

I've seen plenty of dev team involvement, Insaniac, they are however limited in what they can say due to the NDAs.

Then the NDAs are an issue that the company should solve because they are preventing good customer service.  But even baring the NDAs, we haven't seen Aaron post in the rules questions topic in how long?  Of the committee that wrote the book, how many post on the forum?  I've never seen the line developer post on the forum. 

Hell, let me compare the the latest M&M product (that still isn't to print yet)

• First they said "we plan to make this book" to the whole community
• Then they asked "what would you like to see?"
• Then they allow a very small few to playtest it,
• They start preorders for the hardbacks with discounts for the PDFs (available immediately)
• Day one of preorders they ask "what need fixing?"
• Finally after a bunch of people have commented or time has passed they send it to the printer

When things come up that interfere with that process, the fans know about it because the developers (all of them) are on that forum practically every day participating in the community.  Which is more likely to get sales that 6 step process or "oh hey, here's our latest book" sandwiched between months of practical silence?  I know which makes me much happier to spend and incidentally gets better quality books because one actually takes feedback before the book is printed.

[Novocrane]

Why the fuck is their a Shark mentor spirit? Do we really spend that much time in the water to justify such a silly addition?  Why is it even in there? Oh. Because once again, insular design and playtesting. Pure stupidity.

I'm not going to talk about the rest of it, but this at least I wanted to bring up. Do you think Dog mentor spirit is about fetching balls and digging holes? Getting excited when the rest of the team gets home? That's not what mentor spirits are. They're concepts and abstractions from their origin. Dog is about loyalty and support for friends. Shadowrun: Returns had a good line from Algernon about this and why insect spirits scared him, iirc.

Shark is a cold and relentless hunter. His power is
known to all who live near the sea. When Shark strikes,
he does so without mercy, driven into a frenzy by the
blood of his prey. Shark magicians tend to be wanderers,
always on the move. They are fierce and deadly
warriors. A Shark magician believes the only good enemy
is a dead enemy. If challenged, he does not waste
time with threats or boasts but strikes to kill.

So to rephrase your own comment ... pure ignorance.

[Critias]

FWIW -- and this is, to be absolutely clear, just me talking for myself, not claiming to explain anyone else's silence or whatever -- the reason I haven't been around much is that the things I'd like to say, I can't.  I can tell you that nothing's changed on our end (as freelancers) inasmuch as lots of folks chipped in and tried to get errata compiled, but I can also remind you that it's not up to us to release it.  Errata is a thing that exists, and you can see that just from looking at the German release;  it's out there, and someone's been able to integrate most of it...but we can't, as freelancers, just go "whee" and post it, ourselves.  That's up to the guys who do this stuff full time, and even if/when we know why decisions are being made, we're not at liberty to discuss said decisions (thanks to NDAs that cover backstage communication).

As far as the release schedule itself goes...again, just FWIW, but know that no one's more bummed than us writers.  I can't say more than that, because, again, NDA (and also just a basic sense of professionalism that means I try not to bite the hand that feeds me, or whatever).  But yeah.  Just know that we've put lots of words in, for lots of pennies, and we're all chomping at the bit for these products to hit the treadmill (even the second-party ones, in some cases, have CGL-freelancer writing involved, but that doesn't make it up to us when things get released).

So, yeah.  We want stuff to hit shelves just as bad as you guys do, trust me.  Hell, we want it to hit more, so we can get paid, and/or so we can show off something cool, y'know?  I'm sorry we can't do or say more to assuage concerns, but I figured I'd at least chime in to share a little something besides silence.

[Insaniac99]

FWIW -- and this is, to be absolutely clear, just me talking for myself, not claiming to explain anyone else's silence or whatever -- the reason I haven't been around much is that the things I'd like to say, I can't.  I can tell you that nothing's changed on our end (as freelancers) inasmuch as lots of folks chipped in and tried to get errata compiled, but I can also remind you that it's not up to us to release it.  Errata is a thing that exists, and you can see that just from looking at the German release;  it's out there, and someone's been able to integrate most of it...but we can't, as freelancers, just go "whee" and post it, ourselves.  That's up to the guys who do this stuff full time, and even if/when we know why decisions are being made, we're not at liberty to discuss said decisions (thanks to NDAs that cover backstage communication).

As far as the release schedule itself goes...again, just FWIW, but know that no one's more bummed than us writers.  I can't say more than that, because, again, NDA (and also just a basic sense of professionalism that means I try not to bite the hand that feeds me, or whatever).  But yeah.  Just know that we've put lots of words in, for lots of pennies, and we're all chomping at the bit for these products to hit the treadmill (even the second-party ones, in some cases, have CGL-freelancer writing involved, but that doesn't make it up to us when things get released).

So, yeah.  We want stuff to hit shelves just as bad as you guys do, trust me.  Hell, we want it to hit more, so we can get paid, and/or so we can show off something cool, y'know?  I'm sorry we can't do or say more to assuage concerns, but I figured I'd at least chime in to share a little something besides silence.

I came back to post something gentle like how I like Shadowrun.  I don't blame the freelancers and those under NDA and I'm definitely not angry, but I see lots of room for improvement and for me it can be summed up with this request to the people in charge:

  "Please be open, honest, and engage with us fans.  I will understand "its not ready because" I will understand delays happen, I will understand "we see the problem but aren't sure how to fix it"  what I have trouble understanding is silence and a lack of engagement with us.  Your websites and social media accounts are more than just loudspeakers to tell us about things a month before they are about to come out.  If you need ideas on how to do things right, talk to Steve Kenson about how he handles the fans during a Mutants and Masterminds release and everything that builds up to that moment.  Green Ronin's interaction with fans gets me to purchase products I don't need and probably won't use just because I want to support such an awesome company, the way you handle me as a fan makes me only buy what I think I will within a couple days.  So please, please, change your policies, be more open, honest, and friendly and make me want to support you more."

If there is anyway you or anyone else can pass that message to the people who make the decisions, I'd appreciate it.

[Ryo]

Appreciate the work you freelancers do, Critias (In fact I just finished reading Neat earlier today), but whoever is on top of this food chain really needs to step forward and open up some lines of communication, because total radio silence is not a good policy to keep people engaged in the game. There's a lot of unrest from the consumer base here about the quality of the new product line, and getting absolutely nothing out of the powers that be about the subject, not even something as simple as 'yes, we're working on it' as an update is discouraging. Anything at all at this stage would be an improvement over what we have.

This is especially bad in regards to the stories floating around about books that are falling apart at the slightest provocation. That is bad news, and is one of two reasons I have refrained from buying a hardcopy of the core book so far, the other being errata related. As far as I am aware, there has been no official response from Catalyst regarding the problem and whether or not any steps have been taken to correct it, which does not instill a lot of confidence nor inspire me to want to pick up a hardcopy any time soon.

[Wildcard]

The only purpose for this thread seems to be to try to draw people into a flamewar.  I think this would be more productive if the review was passed along directly to someone at CGL for review.

It fits in with the year in review type threads that permeate the net this time of year. Frankly I was a little surprised that no one else had made one yet.

I'm not going to talk about the rest of it, but this at least I wanted to bring up. Do you think Dog mentor spirit is about fetching balls and digging holes?

Dog is something everyone has seen. Dog is common. Shark is exceedingly rare and exists only in an environment that Runners *very* rarely visit.  If a mentor spirit makes itself visible, it helps if you don't laugh at the absurdity of it appearing. Dog on ground? Makes sense. Raven on shoulder? Makes sense. Thunderbird in air? Makes sense. Shark knocking on a door? SNL skit. Surely there existed a spirit that could have fit the archetype without venturing into the absurd. My baseless and unfounded claim is that Shark exists merely as a favor to someone's GM/player/whatever.

The NDAs are an issue that the company should solve because they are preventing good customer service.

Very well said.

As far as the release schedule itself goes...again, just FWIW, but know that no one's more bummed than us writers.

I don't think any sane person would blame the freelancers making less than beer money for the release schedule. For what it's worth, I met you at GenCon. You seemed nice and personable

I just wish the go-to line wasn't the "Aw, Shucks" madness when it comes to accountability from the company. Advertising products that slip past release by 10 months with little to no word is shitty, but... whatever. Releasing an unfinished, flawed product, than going back on earlier promises to be more transparent and interact with players when it came to fixing these sorts of issues? That's only going to lead to anger and a disgruntled fanbase.  Why isn't there someone being paid to handle the obvious errors that can be quickly resolved?  Ghouls don't have a means to spread their disease as of 5th. Why is Patrick Goodman barred from piping in and just saying "Yeah, that's an obvious oversight. Give them the infection power.  We'll add that to the errata pile."

I feel like there's a lack of communication between people empowered to make any decisions on the matter.

[Sichr]

For the shark I cannot agree. Our campaign heavily involves Cyberpirates source, crew has their own ship, locating and destroying pirate bases, working in Caribic, Philipines, Madagascar, Cape town. I can see why Shark is strange flavour for Seattle based group, well I can see HongKong located mages to have Mentor spirit: Panda, and I thing i.e., Owl would have difficulties to explain itself in Lagos (well I dont know, maybe those birds live there)

[Michael Chandra]

Isn't Shark near the water, not just in the water? There's an awful lot of places near water.

[Ryo]

And if they give ghouls infection as part of the errata I'll be very annoyed. Ghoul infection is an ordinary disease, not a result of the infection power. The problem is that they didn't include the disease rules in core.

[shadowrom]

... total radio silence is not a good policy to keep people engaged in the game. There's a lot of unrest from the consumer base here about the quality of the new product line, and getting absolutely nothing out of the powers that be about the subject, not even something as simple as 'yes, we're working on it' as an update is discouraging. Anything at all at this stage would be an improvement over what we have.

I agree with the tone set in this thread. There was so much momentum behind the Year of Shadowrun, record PDF and great Physical copies sales, but all this silence about important subjects is killing it. We know that drek happens and we (except some trogs out there) understand. But communication today is VITAL. Let's take the infamous example of the Amazon snafu. If it is your business sell books through Amazon and they set an arbitrary release date, you should contact them to fix the situation as soon as you discover it. If that do not work you should release an official statement informing the situation to your consumers. You do not do that and people will blame you even if it is not your fault. Put it on your home page and a link to it on the header of every page on your site and the Internet will do the rest.

I do not know what is involved in day-to-day RPG business and I do not know the size of the Catalyst staff or the terms of their contracts. I do know that disappointing your customers is bad and I understand that once burn you do not want to commit to dates until everything is 100% guaranteed. I do not feel that we want you to do that though. We do not need 40 tweets about missing  dropbox files or a 16-page illustrated document every week highlighting how awesome the next core book to be released February 16 will be. But if you could set aside 10 minutes of your workweek to post something like "we are currently proofreading our April release but we are having problems with the printing company in charge of the February core book, so you can expect a substantial delay. More on that when we know more." that would go a long way.  You have a seldom updated website/blog, and the Official Announcements right here is barely touched. A little more openness is all that we are asking. That and an Errata. =)

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, sorry, no on the Amazon thing. Amazon lies about a LOT of release dates of a lot of things. There's nothing Catalyst can do, especially since Catalyst aren't the ones selling there to begin with. Besides, Amazon has been doing this for quite a while now. What makes you think they'd actually listen and put a "TBA" in when contacted? And when a topic was made, backlash came up.

As for your example, you're noting a release date there. But that's exactly what CGL refuses to do, they do not give out any info on release dates exactly to prevent disappointment and backlash from delays.

[Patrick Goodman]

And if they give ghouls infection as part of the errata I'll be very annoyed. Ghoul infection is an ordinary disease, not a result of the infection power. The problem is that they didn't include the disease rules in core.

To be fair, neither did SR4. And SR4 also didn't provide ghouls a way to "spread their disease" in the core rules, either. I tried to bring the Pestilence power back, but it didn't fly. I can't recall the reason at the moment.

Unless something drastic has changed, and it's not outside the realm of possibility, the ghouls do not get Infection power as part of the errata. At the very least, it's never been suggested or offered up as errata in my presence.

[Wildcard]

From what I can tell, there's a few things that give you better resistance to disease, a few means to cure disease, but no actual disease in the book. Handling the Ghoul business (Ghoulosity? Ras al Ghoul?) as a modified infection power would probably be the neatest and most likely way to get the information in the core book. As it stands, fluff tells you it's a very dangerous and real problem, stats tell you to wade naked through ghouls and you'll be fine.

[Frankie the Fomori]

My year of Shadowrun.... Amazing!

I am greatful for the amount of Fun I have had over the last year.

It started off with receiving the highest honor I could hope for... A place in SR fiction. Having Critias add little Frankie the Vet in Neat still makes my day just thinking about it:) again thank you.

Second was supporting SR in Pax prime. My god that was fun. I have met some amazing people and helped guide a small family south of Seattle into changing from MMO to weekly SR games. Even our own game has a couple people who played with us that day still showing up for a game.

Playing at Wishes several times alongside Mrs Bills and kid(s). Those were some fun games

While my brother got sick and passed away from liver failure I was able to get an SR 5 game in. More then an RPG group my friends gave me perspective on losing someone so close.... Then gave me a chance to shoot a corp scum bag in the face!

I am greatful for SR, it gives me an outlet of enjoyment, added amazing friends to my life, and even when I am chilling by myself I can pick up something to read and immerse myself into this amazing world:)

[Sichr]

YMMV