[Krinje]

I'm really at a loss here.

From the searches I've made here all I keep seeing is; "Oh yeah, one of the disadvantages is you stick out like a sore thumb." The problem is, I'm not seeing rules that really back that up.

One problem is the wording "The spell becomes permanent" in the quickening paragraph. Seeing as "permanent" is some what of a key word, that would mean that detect magic and assessing are both out as "their effect becomes a lasting, non-magical characteristic" Now my gut tells me that the word permanent was meant to describe the fact that the spell is now self-sustaining-indefinitely, but that isn't what is written.

I found the book did a very mediocre job describing normal perceiving magic, is it while the spell is being cast? being sustained? permanent? is it only when you bump into the spell, or can you see it from afar? (specifically subtle spells that aren't obvious fireballs). When does perceiving magic apply?

Basically my question is; What is making these spells stick out? How are they getting noticed? What kinds of penalties does power and multiple quickened spells actually incur on their visibility/detectability?

[Michael Chandra]

Some people claim Perceiving Magic works against sustained magic. I personally disagree. However, every spell is visible on the astral. A quickened spell simply no longer requires sustaining, it still is a spell, it still is a magical boost, it still can be taken out by wards and it still is visible on the astral as it has an aura. If you walk around with five quickened spells, any assenser will see you have 5 auras with you and will realize you're likely heavily possessed or prepared for war, so will call for HTR. HTR will kill you if you don't surrender, knock you out if you surrender, then throw you through weak mana barriers until all spells are broken, and THEN they'll wake you up, in magecuffs, and interrogate you.

[Krinje]

Thank you for the fast reply. For me it was just the word "permanent" that made me hesitant to say that the rest of that was the case.

[RHat]

It really should use the term "self-sustaining" instead of permanent, yes.

And I'd be of the school that suggest that Perceiving Magic should apply to any active magical effect. 

[Namikaze]

It's worth also mentioning that if you have a spell quickened that you don't carry around on your person, say like a Detection spell that alerts you if people walk by the spell's locus, then a mage can determine your Astral Signature from the spell.  It would essentially still have your flavor on it.  And yes, I just made astral perception seem like mages are licking things.  Because why not. 

[Insaniac99]

  And yes, I just made astral perception seem like mages are licking things.  Because why not. 

Perhaps we should call you Namekaze 

[sn0mm1s]

It really should use the term "self-sustaining" instead of permanent, yes.

And I'd be of the school that suggest that Perceiving Magic should apply to any active magical effect.

That would make spells like Physical Mask, Stealth, Invisibility and many others worthless. The threshold to perceive is likely going to be far easier to beat than the opposed roll to resist the spell. Your interpretation pretty much results in a mage having to use reagents or Edge to cast a spell at a low force to keep the perceive threshold high but not limiting the hits for the opposed roll.

[Namikaze]

  And yes, I just made astral perception seem like mages are licking things.  Because why not. 

Perhaps we should call you Namekaze 

Clever clever 

[martinchaen]

It really should use the term "self-sustaining" instead of permanent, yes.

And I'd be of the school that suggest that Perceiving Magic should apply to any active magical effect.

That would make spells like Physical Mask, Stealth, Invisibility and many others worthless. The threshold to perceive is likely going to be far easier to beat than the opposed roll to resist the spell. Your interpretation pretty much results in a mage having to use reagents or Edge to cast a spell at a low force to keep the perceive threshold high but not limiting the hits for the opposed roll.

Is that necessarily such a bad thing? Mages have very little use for money as it is, so having to buy reagents if they want to remain stealthy seems like it could be a balancing factor to me at least.

I'm torn on the perceiving magic, business. The rules are definitely vague, and I don't even know what I think would be thematically fitting. More thought needed.

[RHat]

It really should use the term "self-sustaining" instead of permanent, yes.

And I'd be of the school that suggest that Perceiving Magic should apply to any active magical effect.

That would make spells like Physical Mask, Stealth, Invisibility and many others worthless. The threshold to perceive is likely going to be far easier to beat than the opposed roll to resist the spell. Your interpretation pretty much results in a mage having to use reagents or Edge to cast a spell at a low force to keep the perceive threshold high but not limiting the hits for the opposed roll.

That is a valid point - but in those cases, I might rule it that you have to see through it FIRST, and then perceiving magic is about telling the difference between something done magically versus something done through mundane or technological means (for example, disguising yourself with Physical Mask versus with a disguise kit or costume).  I kinda like the idea that you can, using Edge or reagents, make it difficult for mundanes to tell whether or not you're using Magic even once they've seen though the Illusion.

[sn0mm1s]

It really should use the term "self-sustaining" instead of permanent, yes.

And I'd be of the school that suggest that Perceiving Magic should apply to any active magical effect.

That would make spells like Physical Mask, Stealth, Invisibility and many others worthless. The threshold to perceive is likely going to be far easier to beat than the opposed roll to resist the spell. Your interpretation pretty much results in a mage having to use reagents or Edge to cast a spell at a low force to keep the perceive threshold high but not limiting the hits for the opposed roll.

Is that necessarily such a bad thing? Mages have very little use for money as it is, so having to buy reagents if they want to remain stealthy seems like it could be a balancing factor to me at least.

I'm torn on the perceiving magic, business. The rules are definitely vague, and I don't even know what I think would be thematically fitting. More thought needed.

Yes - it is a bad thing because casting at a low Force also makes the spell much easier to dispel. This makes quickening practically useless if you have to use karma to cast them at a low Force. The balancing factor is drain, and the karma investment both the spell, the quickening, and initiation to get quickening in the first place.

[Mithlas]

That would make spells like Physical Mask, Stealth, Invisibility and many others worthless. The threshold to perceive is likely going to be far easier to beat than the opposed roll to resist the spell. Your interpretation pretty much results in a mage having to use reagents or Edge to cast a spell at a low force to keep the perceive threshold high but not limiting the hits for the opposed roll.

I think that the "obviously magical" applies to spells that aren't explicitly designed for subtlety, which are pretty much exclusively Illusion spells (although you could argue both ways for mental manipulation magic or psychic detection). I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe that 4E's spell design table included a drain code modifier for spells that were subtle like illusion. I do know that it was easier to cast Obvious spells, but I can't remember if the non-obvious were +0 or +2.

That is a valid point - but in those cases, I might rule it that you have to see through it FIRST, and then perceiving magic is about telling the difference between something done magically versus something done through mundane or technological means (for example, disguising yourself with Physical Mask versus with a disguise kit or costume). I kinda like the idea that you can, using Edge or reagents, make it difficult for mundanes to tell whether or not you're using Magic even once they've seen though the Illusion.

I agree, especially if you're going through the effort and expense of reagents.