[mrcatman]

We have a mage considering quickening a couple spells at Force 7, but only spending 1 karma per quickened spell. We're trying to wrap our heads around the consequences for doing this and would appreciate any insight from you gurus.

(MC already mentioned in another thread that quickened spells are not masked via Initiate Masking at this time, so we're aware of that; and hoping for extended masking!)


The PC has Magic 7, and was planning on quickening at Force 7, and let's presume he got 7 hits as part of that.

Dispelling
Contains some spoiler info, so...

[spoiler]
The published adventures we've been playing (Sprawl Wilds, Firing Line) seem to have foes with Magic in the 4 to 5 range, and Counterspelling at 7 to 9, or a typical max of 14 dice for dispelling. And it didn't appear that they had counterspelling foci. I did spot a couple exceptions like Wulf with 20 dice, but it doesn't feel like the norm; and we're all fine with that. Just trying to get a sense of how likely dispelling might be in this setup.

If I'm reading p. 295 right, it seems like the typical enemy mage would roll 14 dice vs. our PC's 15 dice (MAG 7 + Force 7 + 1 karma spent during quickening). Seems pretty even, unless one side uses edge and the other does not. But the typical enemy mages had a lower MAG rating than the PC, so they're dealing with physical damage on the drain, which is a decent disincentive (especially if the NPC is already hurt). Is the above correct?
[/spoiler]

Mana Barrier / Astral Intersections
So our PC is in an elevator with his quickened spells and passes through a mana barrier during the ride, forcing the quickened spells to drag through the barrier. What happens?

If I'm reading p.316 correctly, it sounds like each quicken spell has to make an opposed test. But, the quickened spells don't fit the categories... living beings, non-living barriers or objects. We're not clear if you are supposed to treat it like living being (and make a Caster's MAG+CHA test) or objects-esk (and make Spell's Force x2 test) vs. the barrier's Force x2 test. Which do you think?

Then, if the quickened spell gets any net hits, it remains intact, otherwise it's gone and the karma used to initially quicken it is lost. Is that correct?

Thank you ahead of time for your help! We love these forums and all the help you've already provided our group.

Background Counts
Is this even an issue vs. Force 7 quickened spells? Not sure if they lower the effective net hits temporarily or not.

One more unrelated side question... can Banishing be used to get rid of a spirit possessing someone? 

[Michael Chandra]

The rules and Aaron's clarification aren't really clear. Right now I'd treat them as objects, which they sound like, so that'd be Forcex2 vs Forcex2. Each Quickened Spell would have to score more hits or die, so the more you have, the more chance you lose karma.

As GM I'd consider houseruling it as a Dispelling-like roll, so Force+Magic+Karma, since otherwise it wouldn't really matter how much Karma you put into high-Force spells where dispelling isn't an option. If it's F+M+K, a Force 14 Magic 7 would be 22 dice instead of 28 this way. But it might not be required. Instead, you may decide the odds are bad enough that you'll let karma boost the Forcex2 roll as well.

Let's take a look at a Force 5 and a Force 6 Barrier versus a Force 7 and a Force-14 spell.
5-vs-7: 36% breaking odds.
7-vs-7: 42% breaking odds.
5-vs-14: 2.68% (1/37) breaking odds.
7-vs-14: 8.49% (1/12) breaking odds.

So a Force 7 spell will shatter easily, whereas a Force 14 will take quite some effort to break.

[Beaumis]

If I'm reading p.316 correctly, it sounds like each quicken spell has to make an opposed test. But, the quickened spells don't fit the categories... living beings, non-living barriers or objects. We're not clear if you are supposed to treat it like living being (and make a Caster's MAG+CHA test) or objects-esk (and make Spell's Force x2 test) vs. the barrier's Force x2 test. Which do you think?

The rules on P. 316 cover the intersection of two astral forms. They only distinguish between living and non living astral forms. Since quickened spells are non living astral forms, they should be dealt with at Force*2 [Force].

The quickening rules explicitly mention dispelling, so technically, the karma bonus only applies to dispelling. This also makes sense from a magical theory perspective, as the karma investment reflects an intimately personal understanding of the spell that the enemy mage has to understand in order to unravel. Two astral forms intersecting however does not seek to skillfully unravel the threads of magic, but is simply a collision of two objects.

Then, if the quickened spell gets any net hits, it remains intact, otherwise it's gone and the karma used to initially quicken it is lost. Is that correct?

By RAW, yes. Quickening basically makes a spell self sustaining, but there are no rules for it to "regenerate" when the sustaining is broken. They are still spells. Hence, a quickened spell that ends for whatever reason takes the karma with it as it is "spend".

I would like to point out an issue with Mana Barriers that should be clear at your table. The astral intersection rules state that the loser of this contest basically breaks. In the case of mana barriers that means that they colapse. The general rules for Mana Barriers state that the creator is immediate aware of any "attack" on a barrier of his. In the case of wards, this could be multiple people. Basically, if you take the two rules in context, they seem to indicate that mana barriers act like magical tripwires that alert one or more corporate mages to the presence of an intruding astral form, even if the barrier defeats the quickened spell.

The rules are unclear whether this only applies to actual astral combat or if it includes any application of brute force. From a magical theory perspective, this could go both ways. Since magic is generally driven by will and intent, it could be that only an intentional attack such as astral combat counts as attacking. However, it is also quite valid to claim that there is little difference between an astral form pounding its fists against the barrier and an astral form trying to "drive through" the barrier.

In the absence of clarification, you should discuss this with your player. As it stands right now, there is a little more at stake than just losing a point of Karma. Ruining a run because there was a barrier none noticed can be pretty deadly.