[spuwdsda]

In essence, the RAW is that the GM can apply handwavium at any time, for any availability, on any item, according to his desire.

Well done. This is a good effort.

However, is advice that the GM should feel free to change such details to suit his campaign a mechanic? I wouldn't describe it as a mechanic, but ymmv.

However, let's assume it qualifies. If the GM has changed an item to '-' availability, then there is still no mechanic for purchasing items with an availability rating retail. The item being purchased has no availability rating in this situation.

Therefore your argument fails.

[All4BigGuns]

Not to mention if "house rule it for your table" works for this, then the same is true for the Mystic Adept in SR5 because if the Mystic Adept as printed is a problem for a given table for whatever reason, the GM of that table can "house rule it for his table".

In my opinion, saying that this is a "house rule" situation while saying that the Mystic Adept "requires errata" is sheer hypocrisy. (Note- This is not an attack on anyone, merely an observation base on how things are appearing to me.)

[Reaver]

well, there are these wonderful little quotes from the book:

SR 5, page 333:

Next, table rules should be established, if the group
doesn’t have them already....

SR5, page 334

The group should then discuss if there are any house
rules they would like to implement. These are specific instances
where the group decides to play the game differently
than how it is written.....

SR5, page 334

When everyone comes to the table, they should
come with the attitude of dedicating themselves to the
game, committed to making it work. All of the discussions
described above are designed to help the gamemasters
and players understand group goals and expectations
and (ideally) find acceptable compromises.

SR5 page 416

Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard,
or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired
piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation
of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues,
supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an
item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the
item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the
gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability
Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality
code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner
is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.

so here we have MULTIPLE references from the book that ALLOWS you to change things. and you can do so as RAW (because it is written in the book.)

it even goes on to tell you why some items have an availability!!!  (can you find the quote that tells you why?) Sure that item is sitting on a shelf somewhere in some store, in some city, in some country. But it just might not be YOUR city, or your Country. Not to worry! They deliver!!!  (see the delivery rules) And for a few (hundred? thousand?) extra bucks, you might be able to cut that time down do mere minutes! (which I guess would mean it was in the very first shop you walked into!)

Now lets ACTUALLY look at all the items listed in the book.... starting with the items with NO listing for availability (a dash):

Knife, Survival knife, Club,Defiance EX Shocker,  Yamaha Pulsar, Clothing, (Synth)Leather, Helmet(s), AR Gloves, Electronic paper, printer, trodes, trid projector, datachips, standard RFID tags, Cyberprogram, common use, standard and silver credsticks, tool kits, Binos (all types), cameras, glasses, googles, image link, ear buds, head phones, Omni microphones, heck, you can even get metal handcuffs!!! (sex shops. they ARE good for something!) the list goes on and on but you get the point.

Everything on the list is pretty much your everyday affair item that you can find at any low budget Wal-Mart type of store. All of them are typically non violent (Tasers are seen self-defence items), or have other, more mundane uses (baseball bat for a club... a steak knife... for a knife). Heck many of these items you can get at a dollar store NOW. Most of these items are your run of the mill "trash" items that many characters never actually buy (I can't think of a single time I had a player write "paper for printer" on his character sheet...)

Now lets look at the items WITH an availability cost to the item, but no legal code:

Combat knife, Extendable baton, Sap, various staves, various firearm accessories (but not a single firearm...), taser darts (they are harder to find then the taser! Go figure), flash pack (WTF?), feedback clothing (is this so you can wear them, and THEY can tell you that you look like an idiot, before you leave the house? probably not....), various armor protection mods, various armors, every single commlink,, software of various types, good credsticks. the list continues, but you get the idea.

these are all the items that are perfectly legal to own and buy.... but you just can't walk into any low rent department store and expect to find them... you might have to put a little leg work into the actual search.....you know, buy it from Zoe's fine wear, instead of K-mart...... IF you have a Zoe's fine wear shop in your town.

now lets look at 2 items from the same category: commlinks for this example, we will use a low mid range and a high end item:

Sony Emperor (availability 4, $700 cost) this is about equal to your smart phone most of you have in terms of price point. (iPhone 5, galaxy S4, etc)

Fairlight Caliban (availability 14, $8000 cost) this well more then my sat/cell Ericson smart phone (it better be water proof like mine is!!)

First lets review the how and what the test is:

SR 5 page 418
When you get to the good stuff, the higher the Availability
Rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item. To purchase
an item off the books, make an Availability Test.
This is an Opposed Test of your Negotiation + Charisma
[Social] versus the item’s Availability Rating. If you win
the Opposed Test, you find the gear at the listed price,
and it is delivered in the amount of time given on the
Delivery Times table divided by your net hits. If you tie
in the test, you find the gear, but the delivery time is
twice that listed on the table.....

lets assume you didn't totally cripple yourself, and say you have a Charisma 3 and Negotiation 3 (plain old average).

For the Emperor, you are rolling 6 dice VS the device's 4.... chances are you will win by at least 1 success... maybe 2 (or maybe 6!!): now we look at the table for delivery times:

1 success: 1 day. so you spent a day wandering the city and found one! congrats! or you ordered it online with same day delivery.
2 Successes: 12 hours, so you spent half a day looking, and found one. good job!
6 successes: 4 hours.. so you hopped on a bus, went downtown and found one. Next? LUNCH!

on the opposite side of the spectrum, you go for a Caliban! same average Joe as before:

Now you are rolling 6 dice VS 14.... and chances are GREAT that you are not going to find one. Maybe they are sold out. Maybe there was a problem at the factory (damn shadowrunners! They are ruining your consumerism!) well, at least you are not finding one at list (MSRP) price, but if you go to one of those ultra posh Uber elite stores, they MIGHT have one if you throw down a big fat credstick... (see buying more dice) For $32,000, you can get yourself 12 bonus dice... so now it's 18 VS 14.... and chances are you will come out with 1 success...maybe 2 (heck, maybe even 7! or 18!!!)

now we look at the delivery times: (factoring in your $32,000 purchase)

1 success: a week... sorry but the item in store is just a demo model, and you have to wait for shipping (and customs and all that crap).
2 successes: 3.5 days hey, not bad! they offer 3 day shipping on top of the half a day you spent wandering around town looking for the item.. or online
7 successes: 1 day!!! holy crap!!! next day shipping! That store ROCKS!!!
18 Successes: 9 hours!! You smooth talker you! you convinced the sales staff to sell you Richard Villiers back ordered unit! And all it took was a smile, and song and a dance (not to mention travel time, talking time, etc)


this is an interesting quote for you... a little more food for you thought processes.....

SR 5 page 416

Of course, standard goods can also be purchased on
the black market to avoid traceability, but the gamemaster
may decide that the latest copy of Miracle Shooter is
more expensive with the digital serial numbers filed off
and apply a surcharge for your paranoia.

Or, you COULD just look at the bold face int he second to last quote... and use some common sense. (which seems to have disappeared from many people in the 21st century.... I blame the internetz!!)

[Michael Chandra]

According to Bull, delivery times equal the time actually spent looking for it. I'm not really sure if that's intended but it's the ruling for Missions, though not perse for normal. Only contacts can just call about and arrange things.

[Reaver]

According to Bull, delivery times equal the time actually spent looking for it. I'm not really sure if that's intended but it's the ruling for Missions, though not perse for normal. Only contacts can just call about and arrange things.

that could be, and hopefully it will be in the errata... I take the "delivery" time thing to mean just that... Delivery time. With the amount of online shopping people do today, it's not that big a stretch to think that it would be MORE prevailant in the future... So I imagine a lot of purchases are done from the comfort of your own home via the matrix... and now it just the waiting game for the delivery person.

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, same here. Bull's an oldtimer though.

[Reaver]

Yeah, same here. Bull's an oldtimer though.

Those Orks... they age fast






Wait a minute!!!! Bull is like 10 years younger then ME!!!! if he's old... what that make me???

[spuwdsda]

To Reaver:

To summarise your position as I understand it: The RAW gives licence to make houserules. Therefore there is a RAW mechanic to buy items with an availability rating retail - houserule it.

My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

Your argument rests on whether the general licence to make houserules, itself constitutes a RAW mechanic.

It the context of my claim, I used the word mechanic to mean a specific procedure - like those defined in RAW for buying items with no availability rating and buying items on the black market.

A houserule is often a specific procedure, but a licence to make a houserule is a step removed from a specific procedure. The licence can initiate the development of a specific procedure wrt buying items with an availability rating retail, but is not itself a specific procedure to buy items with availability retail.

However, thank you for identifying this semantic unclarity in my claim. Therefore I shall restate:

My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

[PeterSmith]

My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.

[Kincaid]

My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.

I think this nicely ties up the thread.

[spuwdsda]

My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

It's in the same section of the book covering the rules for watching a sunrise, having a meal, and going to the bathroom.

I believe so. Yet challengers continue to step into the ring.

[ImaginalDisc]

In the end, what makes a "Stop Having Fun" Guy isn't the rule-setting, it's the attitude. While regular competitive/tournament players simply like playing to win, the "Stop Having Fun" Guy believes that this is the only right way to play the game.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys

[Reaver]

<a post that probably bordered on Bannable has been redacted by me.>



<ignore function used>


you can lead a horse to water......

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Your argument rests on whether the general licence to make houserules, itself constitutes a RAW mechanic.

It the context of my claim, I used the word mechanic to mean a specific procedure - like those defined in RAW for buying items with no availability rating and buying items on the black market.

My claim: there is no current specific procedure by RAW to buy items (with availability rating) retail.

... uh ... okay, wow.  Geez, you completely missed the specific procedure, by RAW, to buy items with an availability rating retail.  Unfortunately, I allowed myself to be suckered into your incomplete comprehension.  Let us review.

Certain things (those items with no availability rating) are as common as spit.  You can buy them, as it were, at the corner store with the bread and milk.  At the gas station when you get your cigarettes.  At the 'video' store where you get your sim-chips.  They are so ubiquitous (interesting to think of knives and a stun gun as ubiquitous) that you can get them pretty much anywhere.

Other things take some time to get - actually going to the store, or going online and ordering it and (gasp!) waiting for it to be delivered to you because hey, Kong-Walmart doesn't stock top-end cyberdecks at their local stores, they have to ship it from their distribution center, whether that's in Downtown Seattle or in Denver.  Maybe they have to order it from the manufacturer.

'Availability' wraps together a lot of stuff up into one 'specific procedure' - including how hard it is to find it in stock at a retail outlet.

Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on.

Now, here's where your understanding fell down, got up, fell down, got up, fell down every flight of stairs from the top of the ACHE to the bottom, got up, and fragging fell down again.

In no way or place does the RAW state that items with Availability must be purchased on the black market.  'Standard goods with no availability' (hereafter SGNA) are different from 'standard goods' (hereafter SG) only in the fact that SGNA can be gotten bloody anywhere, and SG you have to look for, e.g. make one or several availability test(s) until you hit the target and have tracked down your gizmo, or it's been shipped from the warehouse.  Standard Goods are purchased retail - it's a question of how much time you have to take to find the place that has it in stock right now.  You use the same mechanic; there is no alteration.  The only functional difference between 'Standard Goods' and 'Black Market Goods', thematically, is that you can increase the amount you're willing to pay in order to get a hold of the thing faster, or even at all.  (You typically can't pay up to 400% of a weapon's price to a Kong-WalMart employee in order to get something more quickly, but your GM might let you.  Ooops, house rule.)

Unfortunately for you, as well as for all the rest of us who assumed that you knew what the hell your problem was, that mechanic was not specifically explained inside the 'Standard Goods' section of the rulebook.  Instead of wasting another column saying what they're going to say in regards to Black Market Goods, they counted on the player and GM using common sense to recognize the fact that 'hey, Black Market Goods use availability and have a mechanic by which to acquire them; Standard Goods can have an availability too, so maybe we should use the same mechanic in order to acquire them.'

God, I can't believe I took you at your word that there wasn't something right fraggin' there that wasn't already staring you in the face.  The warnings were all there, pages worth of people telling you that the sun was bright, the sky was blue, and it rains in Seattle, but nooooo, I had to be a trusting dumbshit ...

[Critter]

I love this thread. This Spudwacker guy is a expert troll.