[Unahim]

Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .

And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.

(the rest of this post is not specifically targeted at the quoted poster)

There also aren't any rules about going to the toilet or having sex, but characters are still able to do it. I once played a local pop celebrity who got blackmailed into doing some criminal stuff (she was a decent mage, and those are rare to come by) which is how she got involved in the entire mess. (Which culminated into an armed standoff between my character and another player's due to a clash of interests, it was glorious for all parties involved) If that character wanted to buy a new Commlink for use in her luxury home, surely there are official channels through which that can be done?

Thinking that all purchases made during a Shadowrun game are meant for criminal purposes is fallacious, and I don't see any reason to go black market for such items.

[Critter]

[Godwyn]

Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .

And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.

Also already shown by ZeConster to be incorrect on p. 416.  I will concede that there are not strong, developed rules for buying items legally.  I guess if that is what is meant by no mechanics we are in agreement, but they are addressed.  I guess it depends on what one wants out of the game book.  Out of the Shadowrun core book, I want decent rules for Shadowrunning,  I find these here.  I do not find an economics simulator, or a good guide to designing networks, nor likelihood of a sucking chest wound, heart failure, or gastrointestinal seapage from a shot to the torso.  I am okay with this.  At some point abstraction is necessary, and sometimes things don't need to be explicitly added when there is already a page crunch.  I find legal availability of things something

And another houserule way of looking at it

P. 387 Loyalty 1 "Just Biz.  The relationship is purely mercenary, based solely on economics.  The people involved may not even like each other, and they won't offer any sort of preferential treatment."  Sounds a lot like shopping at store.  If another book covers group contacts again, it may be another way to handle it.

[spuwdsda]

Later I claimed that - there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail. This is essentially my only claim on this topic .

And it is correct, 100% so. There are no RAW rules on buying items legally.

Also already shown by ZeConster to be incorrect on p. 416.

P416

"Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local mar- ket fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate)."

My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.

Nothing on p416 contradicts this.

[Novocrane]

Good for you, Spuw.

I believe what is being pointed out, is that you can take this;

with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local market fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate

Or nothing.

[spuwdsda]

That applies only to items with no availability.

QED.

[Novocrane]

So that'll be nothing, then?

[spuwdsda]

No logical and evidential argument has been presented that falsifies my claim.

I mistakenly thought my claim would quickly achieve wide acceptance. From this established premise the conversation could then have moved on productively. However, this claim remains controversial. It continues to attract arguments against it - those I will answer.

I would be delighted to see a good argument falsifying my claim. I await it.

[ZeConster]

There is an easily-filled gap in the rules that's been there since fourth edition (and which really is only a problem if you want it to be), and you've been turning this molehill into a mountain by treating a discussion as if it were a debate. If you want your "claim" to "achieve wide acceptance", perhaps you should stop saying things like "falsifying my claim" and talk like this is a normal conversation.

[Critter]

Oh its on now.

[Kincaid]

Since 1st edition, Shadowrun has assumed that reasonable people will wave their hands in reasonable ways.

[Reaver]

Well, the biggest thing to remember is that the book is written from the "Shadowrunner" POV.... It assumes that you are a criminal, and that you are going to do everything it takes to keep yourself from drawing attention to yourself... which means dealing with the black market for most of your purchases to avoid the paper trail leading to you as much as you can.


And has been stated several times, even everyday items can be hard to find for even legit purchases. The top of the line commlink is a hefty purchase, both from the point of the consumer, and the store. They are not going to have "a couple dozen" sitting around. After all, when was the last time you walked into Wal-mart and could buy a $8000 cellphone? Heck I had to wait 3 months for my $3000 Sat/cell phone!!!! (and I got my Galaxy 4s phone in 10 minutes at a mall kiosk)


IF you absolutely want to make legit transactions, and don't care about the fallout, then house rule it.

but use some common sense.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

P416

"Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from a vending machine. All you have to do is pay the cost listed in the book for the item (with adjustments from the gamemaster if she wants, according to local mar- ket fluctuations or other extenuating circumstances she deems appropriate)."

My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.

Nothing on p416 contradicts this.

Gear’s Availability Rating determines how easy (or hard, or practically impossible) it is to acquire a needed or desired piece of equipment. Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on. The letter that follows an item’s numerical Availability Rating shows whether the item is Restricted (R) or Forbidden (F). For this reason, the gamemaster should feel free to modify an item’s Availability Rating—either the numerical value, or its legality code—in situations that would warrant it, like if the runner is in a war zone or in a country with a restricted economy.

ZeConster originally emphasized the part about what Availability means, but since spuwdsda desires a clear, concise quote-of-Rule-As-Written, I've changed the part to which you should place your attention.

No logical and evidential argument has been presented that falsifies my claim.

I mistakenly thought my claim would quickly achieve wide acceptance. From this established premise the conversation could then have moved on productively. However, this claim remains controversial. It continues to attract arguments against it - those I will answer.

I would be delighted to see a good argument falsifying my claim. I await it.

As you requested a 'good argument' - which you appear to define as a direct quote from the 5e rulebook in regards to your claim, that being the following:

My claim: there is no current mechanics by RAW to buy items (with availability) retail.

I hereby state that your claim is definitively false.  The RAW is that the GM may change availability as he desires.  If he desires, he may state that the book availability is, for a particular item and in a particular time and scenario, null and void.  The RAW is that an item without an availability code can be bought without problems.  A 10,000F main battle tank may be sitting, for sale, right in front of you - if you have the cash on hand, and since this is a battle zone, legality is to laugh at, all you need is 100% cash up front.

In essence, the RAW is that the GM can apply handwavium at any time, for any availability, on any item, according to his desire.  If you can convince your GM that Sharper Image or some other retailer that caters to the $250,000+/year crowd is going to have that super-pricey gizmo, vehicle, or other item you want, and that you should be able to walk in and purchase it using your top-shelf false ID, according to RAW the GM is supposed to house rule it.

Now.  What were you wanting to talk about?

[Novocrane]

Wyrm, you missed the bit where I brought that up, and he rejected it as part of the "standard items with no availability" section. It's gone beyond finding the right sentence for a GM pass at this point; I think the current line is something like, "So you have this passage that doesn't directly refer to what you want, because what you want isn't in the scope of the core book, but you can use it out of context ... that's not good enough for you?"

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Meh.  If that's true, then he's ignoring RAW and being argumentative, and we can all turn on the 'ignore this user' button.