[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't buy the argument that conjurers need anything to balance free spells.  They are totally different skill sets, IMO without spells sorcerers and enchanters are well under powered compared to conjurers.and they need the free spells to compete with the free spirits they get.  The thing is sorcerers and enchanters are non-functional without spells, the conjurer is totally functional as is, so adding spells is actually balancing them by making them functional.

Saying free spells need to be balanced to me is like saying to balance s/e without  spells summoners should not have access to summoning or binding spirits without having to buy them, using up most if not all of their karma to get the 5 for their tradition while allowing the banishing part of it for free to mimic spell defense. 

   

[Dracomax]

I don't buy the argument that conjurers need anything to balance free spells.  They are totally different skill sets, IMO without spells sorcerers and enchanters are well under powered compared to conjurers.and they need the free spells to compete with the free spirits they get.  The thing is sorcerers and enchanters are non-functional without spells, the conjurer is totally functional as is, so adding spells is actually balancing them by making them functional.

Saying free spells need to be balanced to me is like saying to balance s/e without  spells summoners should not have access to summoning or binding spirits without having to buy them, using up most if not all of their karma to get the 5 for their tradition while allowing the banishing part of it for free to mimic spell defense. 

   

By that logic, the Conjurer is overpowered right now. Are people making conjurer MA and not other kinds? because if the argument is true, then someone who just wants to summon really doesn't benefit from taking full magician, as they can get higher magic score and an entire skill group at B priority.

I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily. I just think that if the situation you posit was true, then we should be seeing a lot of Conjurers, even if we don't see many of the other AMs.

If we aren't, then it needs something. maybe not as much as the benefit from the other two types, but something added to make him worth taking.

[norwalkvirus]

I think Conjuration can be more powerful, but that is not the concern. Such an argument is based on individual campaigns and judicious or creative usage by the Conjurer.

The concern is about starting resources. The Aspected Sorcerers and Enchanters are hindered by a lack of startup resources. This appears to be caused by Conjurers having no equivalent type of resource that could be included. As such, they elected to give them no resources. The solution that I think seems most seamless is to assign spells to Sorcerers and Enchanters and then break down those resources to a resource with directly comparable value (karma in this case), exchanging the spells for an equivalent value of resources in another form.

I'd almost want to house-rule it such that all bonus Awakening resources come in the form of Karma. This would give you a better idea of how the balance is between them and allow tweaking. This comes close to the SR3  view of char gen resources, however.

[FasterN8]

I don't buy the argument that conjurers need anything to balance free spells.  They are totally different skill sets, IMO without spells sorcerers and enchanters are well under powered compared to conjurers.and they need the free spells to compete with the free spirits they get.  The thing is sorcerers and enchanters are non-functional without spells, the conjurer is totally functional as is, so adding spells is actually balancing them by making them functional.

Saying free spells need to be balanced to me is like saying to balance s/e without  spells summoners should not have access to summoning or binding spirits without having to buy them, using up most if not all of their karma to get the 5 for their tradition while allowing the banishing part of it for free to mimic spell defense. 

By that logic, the Conjurer is overpowered right now. Are people making conjurer MA and not other kinds? because if the argument is true, then someone who just wants to summon really doesn't benefit from taking full magician, as they can get higher magic score and an entire skill group at B priority.

I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily. I just think that if the situation you posit was true, then we should be seeing a lot of Conjurers, even if we don't see many of the other AMs.

If we aren't, then it needs something. maybe not as much as the benefit from the other two types, but something added to make him worth taking.

I don't think Conjurers are overpowered at all, and I'm starting to agree with Shinobi's post above.  If anything, Conjurers are the closest of the 3 AMs to being balanced and playable as is while the Sorcerer and Enchanters seem to be terribly underpowered at the moment, requiring loads of karma to simply make use of their skills and magic attribute.

Admittedly, we don't really have any numbers to compare how many AM Conjurers there are out there versus Spellcasters and Enchanters, but I think that without help Sorcerers and Enchanters will be practically non existent or at least extremely weak compared to their Conjurer brethren.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't buy the argument that conjurers need anything to balance free spells.  They are totally different skill sets, IMO without spells sorcerers and enchanters are well under powered compared to conjurers.and they need the free spells to compete with the free spirits they get.  The thing is sorcerers and enchanters are non-functional without spells, the conjurer is totally functional as is, so adding spells is actually balancing them by making them functional.

Saying free spells need to be balanced to me is like saying to balance s/e without  spells summoners should not have access to summoning or binding spirits without having to buy them, using up most if not all of their karma to get the 5 for their tradition while allowing the banishing part of it for free to mimic spell defense. 

   

By that logic, the Conjurer is overpowered right now. Are people making conjurer MA and not other kinds? because if the argument is true, then someone who just wants to summon really doesn't benefit from taking full magician, as they can get higher magic score and an entire skill group at B priority.

I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily. I just think that if the situation you posit was true, then we should be seeing a lot of Conjurers, even if we don't see many of the other AMs.

If we aren't, then it needs something. maybe not as much as the benefit from the other two types, but something added to make him worth taking.

As far as I can tell the only aspected mages are conjurers.  Some people self aspect full mages, but the only people who take aspected are conjurers because mages are gimped conjurers aren't/  There is no official poll its just from what I've picked up on various boards and threads. 

[Jesentra]

Honestly, while I understand that Conjurers would feel unspecial if Alchemists and Sorcerers got free stuff and they didn't, I really don't think the lack of free spells was the right answer. I mean, are Conjurers put at any more of a disadvantage if the others got free spells? No, they still get to summon every spirit appropriate to their tradition. Where as now Conjurers and Sorcerers are given a huge handicap, because they now have to  spend karma on spells, instead of the rest of their build. The whole point of an Aspected Mage (to me), is to make a character that uses a small bit of magic to help them do their other, mundane tasks a bit better. Being forced to spend Karma on spells takes away from that... and indeed full magicians could become better than the Aspected, because they aren't forced to tie up Karma points elsewhere.

To me, it's as simple as answering this question. If Aspected Magicians do not get free spells, are you going to play one, besides a Conjurer? The boards are filled with people who have said "Nope, not worth it".

Ask the question, then. If Sorcerers and Alchemists get free spells, but Conjurers don't get anything extra, would you not play a Conjurer? While I can't speak for everyone, I would say confidently that I wouldn't pass on making a Conjurer just because the other Aspects get free stuff that I don't. I still get to play the character that works as intended out of chargen, and that's all that matters.

To this end, I'm house ruling that Aspected Mages get free spells on the same level as mages on that priority level. Level D aspects I haven't decided on yet, but they may or may not get a couple.

[RHat]

To me, it's as simple as answering this question. If Aspected Magicians do not get free spells, are you going to play one, besides a Conjurer? The boards are filled with people who have said "Nope, not worth it".

That's the wrong question.  The question is, if you give Sorcerers and Enchanters a bunch of free stuff and not Conjurers, does that create a balanced environment?  I would conjecture that it very much does not.

[Jesentra]

I would disagree on that, that it is not balanced. In my opinion, the way that it is currently set up is the environment that creates an unbalance. If you take a brand new Sorcerer, and put him against a brand new Conjurer, that Conjurer is heavily favored Karmically, because he was allowed to spend his Karma on other pursuits, whereas the Sorcerer gimps himself by spending his Chargen Karma on spells. Permitting free spells would put them on the level playing field. Obviously, play testing is required, but between the two, I would say that it is more equitable to give Sorcerers and Alchemists something.

To clarify my point, let's move away from comparing Sorcerers/Alchemists to Conjurers, and instead compare them to full Magicians. Let's give Magician A and Sorcerer B both a Magic Priority of B, and under my house rule, they are both afforded free spells. All other Priorities are identical between the two. As per the table on pg 65, it looks like the Sorcerer might be coming out ahead, due to them receiving a nice 1 Magic pt bonus and a 4 pt Sorcery Skill Group, instead of just two Rating 4 Skills. But are these two advantages equitable to the utility of Astral Projection, something that the Sorcerer will never get? Not to mention that the Magician is not barred from summoning spirits or artificing, even if he chose not to put any points into it at chargen. Assuming that the two characters were built exactly the same way, regarding skill, attributes, spells, etc, the ONLY differences between the two will be that the Sorcerer has 1 extra point of Magic, and the bonus of a Skill Group, while the Magician can Astrally Project straight out of the blocks, and will be able to summon and enchant at his leisure down the line. To me, these two are equitable. The Magician is supposed to start out weaker, and snowball as they go along.

Returning to the concept of whether a Sorcerer or Alchemist would be balanced against a Conjurer if given free spells, I think this is entirely fair. Again, let's assume you make two characters exactly the same, except one is a Sorcerer and the other is a Conjurer. It would have to be explained to me how this is unbalanced. Sure, if both characters start just facing each other and start blasting one another, the Sorcerer will probably come ahead, as the Conjurer would have to summon a spirit to make use of his talents, whereas a Sorcerer could instantly blast him with a Manaball. But in terms of all around power, including fighting strength, utility, and not to forget things such as the ability to bind multiple spirits and employ them all at once, I can't imagine how a Sorcerer has an unfair advantage, simply because he got more stuff to start.

But, again, my main assertion is that, in my own opinion, giving free spells to Sorcerers and Enchanters is a LOT more fair than giving them nothing, in comparison to Conjurers.

[RHat]

So are you saying that being a Conjurer is worth some amount of karma more than being a Sorcerer or Enchanter?

In any case, let's note that the current system gives them their skills, not "nothing". 

[FasterN8]

That's the wrong question.  The question is, if you give Sorcerers and Enchanters a bunch of free stuff and not Conjurers, does that create a balanced environment?  I would conjecture that it very much does not.

That's a fair question.  I think you already know my answer though. Now, let's take the flip side of that coin. 

Another valid question is, if you don't change anything with Aspected Magicians, and none of them get anything besides the skill points already granted to them, are Conjurers balanced with Socerers? 

I would conjecture that they very much are not.   If you think so, I would like to hear why.

[Noble Drake]

So are you saying that being a Conjurer is worth some amount of karma more than being a Sorcerer or Enchanter?

There is something distinctly "off" about one sort of aspected magician (the conjurer) being able to fully use all of the skills in his given skill group without additional karma investment while the other two have to shell out karma in order to unlock the use of at least one skill...

There is a feeling of unfairness with being able to choose either Conjurer and be able to summon spirits to your heart's content or Sorcerer that can't actually cast any spells - it might not actually be unbalanced (I am not saying it is or isn't), but it certainly looks like it is.

[RHat]

It's fair to suggest that Conjurers are near feature complete at present (near, because they start off without bound spirits or spend karma on something you should literally never spend karma on) and Sorcerers/Enchanters aren't (whether this presents a balance issue is a different question).  The problem comes in what happens if you give the latter things to make them feature complete and add nothing to the former, which definitely creates an imbalanced environment; a sorcerer or enchanter with the right combination of skills and spell/preparations is a lot more powerful than a conjurer, who cannot make their disjointed sets of abilities work together.

[Shinobi Killfist]

But it doesn't make an imbalanced environment to make sorcery feature complete, its the lack of them being feature complete that is the imbalance.  Sure the right spells for the right situation are more effective than the sorcerers who is in a situation where his spirits abilities don't come into play, but there are tons of  situations where the conjurer will be better off than the sorcerer with his spell list. 

[RHat]

A sorcerer or alchemist with synergistic skills and spells/preparations can be more powerful than a conjurer when spirit abilities are in play.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, I think I've been convinced that both need to be raised, but that sorcerers/Enchanters should get more karma worth of spells than conjurers get additional benefits. So, as an example(not trying to figure out exact amounts here, just illustrate my point)

• Priority       |      Sorcerers/Enchanters       |       Conjurers

______________________________________________

• B                 |                    3 free spell            |        10 Karma to useon qualities, focii, or spellcasting skills
• C                 |                    2 free spells         |        5 Karma to use on qualities, focii, or spellcasting skills
• D                 |                    1 free spell           |        Nothing

Something like that would not seem all that unbalanced, and would help to make up for Conjurers being abloe to act out of the box without making them less useful at higher priorities as Sorcerers and enchanters begin to get synergies.