[Crunch]

Am I houseruling Augmented Max?I thought I was restating them. Then again, given that there isn't really a very clear explanation of it, who knows?

For everything except cyber arms the Augmented Max for SR5 is Natural Attribute +4, you've house ruled it back to the SR4 version.

[JackVII]

Am I houseruling Augmented Max?I thought I was restating them. Then again, given that there isn't really a very clear explanation of it, who knows?

For everything except cyber arms the Augmented Max for SR5 is Natural Attribute +4, you've house ruled it back to the SR4 version.

Hmmm. I guess I wasn't clear in my writing. The intention is to place the maximum total static portion of the initiative equation to (Maximum possible augmented Reaction for the given character) + (Maximum possible augmented Intuition for the given character). How exactly should that be written?

I guess I could change "augment" to improve, but I want to make sure that it is clear that the maximum an attribute can be increased without spending karma on it is by +4.

[Michael Chandra]

So to be clear, a character without boosted Reaction and Intuition could max get another +8 Initiative from Increased Reflexes, whereas with boosted Reaction +4 the best they could get is +4 extra?

[JackVII]

A human without Exceptional Attribute in either of the initiative affecting attributes would be able to have a maximum Initiative attribute of 20 ((6+4) Reaction + (6+4) Intuition) assuming they had 6s in both Reaction and Intuition already. They could get that through sustaining Increase [Reaction] w/ 4 net hits and Increase [Intuition] w/4 net hits. They could alternately do it by getting 8 net hits on Increase Reflexes.

Since the initiative attribute is derived, I don't really consider it being capped as the others, but capped based on the attributes used in the derivation.

For a further example, let's say a runner has Reaction (4), Intuition (4). His maximum Initiative attribute is 16. He could get that by having a mage cast Increase Reaction w/2 net hits, Increased Intuition w/2 net hits and Increased Reflexes with 4 net hits (or any combination thereof that adds up to . Not sure if that is clearer or not...

[Xenon]

@JackVII "normal" augmented maximum is current natural rating +4 (not racial maximum rating +4).

As of right now increased initiative stacks with wired reflexes but not with improved reflexes, which is kinda odd.

Improved Reflexes is always on and rank 3 only cost 3.5 PP (bad if it stack with wired 1)
Synaptic Boosters cost very little essence - so it does not stack with magic (or anything else for that matter).
Wired Reflexes 1 is strong but rank 2+ cost a lot of essence (bad if wired 1 stack with adept or bio)
Mystic Adepts can get both increase initiative and improved reflexes (would be bad if they stack).
increase reflexes is not permanent must be recast every morning and sustained in some way (OK if it stack).


Maybe we could continue here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0

[ZeConster]

A human without Exceptional Attribute in either of the initiative affecting attributes would be able to have a maximum Initiative attribute of 20 ((6+4) Reaction + (6+4) Intuition) assuming they had 6s in both Reaction and Intuition already. They could get that through sustaining Increase [Reaction] w/ 4 net hits and Increase [Intuition] w/4 net hits. They could alternately do it by getting 8 net hits on Increased Reflexes.

Since the initiative attribute is derived, I don't really consider it being capped as the others, but capped based on the attributes used in the derivation.

I think his point is that this house rule would make Increase Reflexes weaker if you have boosts to Reaction and Intuition already, since you cap the Initiative increase from it at (8 - increases to Reaction and Intuition) instead of just at 8.

[JackVII]

I think his point is that this house rule would make Increase Reflexes weaker if you have boosts to Reaction and Intuition already, since you cap the Initiative increase from it at (8 - increases to Reaction and Intuition) instead of just at 8.

Yes, it would be somewhat weaker if you had other spells already cast and sustained affecting Reaction and Intuition. You would, of course, still get the extra initiative dice.

[Michael Chandra]

What about someone with Reaction Augmentations? How would Increase Reflexes work with that?

[JackVII]

Sorry, I forgot to include the last adjustment above, namely that anything (other than drugs) that provided an increase to Initiative Dice would have any static rider bonus changed to an increase in initiative rather than reaction (basically, those would all work like the Increase Reflexes spell). Yes, I know this would reduce the utility of a bit of cyber/bio (but would benefit from not adding to the augment cap to reaction so the initiative boost gained from Reaction Enhancers (derived from +Reaction) would automatically stack with the initiative bonus from Wired Reflexes (although total max cap of 8 ).

Drugs are special snowflakes under my rules.

[Rythymhack]

It seems a whole lot simpler to just state that all initiative enhancers stack as long as two things happen. The cunulative bonus to reaction acn not exceed +4 (thereby reinforcing the already existing augmented max) and the total number of initiative dice can not exceed +3 (making the best possible bonus +4 reac +3dice). This leaves room for usinf edge to go first.

[Michael Chandra]

I'd not let the dice stack myself, aside from Improved&Increased Reflexes + Drugs, and not let boosts to Reaction stack. But if someone has SB3+IncRef8, I'd give them +3 Rea, +8+4d6 (on top of Rea+Int+1d6). Makes little sense to penalize the +Rea+Initiative augmentations compared to +Rea augmentations when it comes to combining with IncRef.

[ZeConster]

It seems a whole lot simpler to just state that all initiative enhancers stack as long as two things happen. The cunulative bonus to reaction acn not exceed +4 (thereby reinforcing the already existing augmented max) and the total number of initiative dice can not exceed +3 (making the best possible bonus +4 reac +3dice). This leaves room for usinf edge to go first.

Why cap at 4D6? VR and Increase Reflexes mention the 5D6 cap, so this would basically nerf those things.

[Rythymhack]

Still waiting on my book. That being said, my logic was this...wired reflexes, synaptic boosters and the adept equivelent (forgot name off the top of my head) all cap out at +3d6. This makes a character's initiative (#)+4d6. The only instance of 5d6 total I have heard of was if you spent edge to go first. If everything stacks within those parameters, the (assumed) effect is that you can get creative in HOW you reach those caps without breaking the game. Also, spending edge to go first should remain special. Also I am just trying to throw out a (seems to me) simple solution (that admittedly does not take into accout wireless boni).

[Rythymhack]

But it now occurs to me that allowing improved reflexes 1, synaptic boosters1 and wired reflexes 1 to stack with eachother (even within those limits) may have some balance issues that I haven't thought of.

[Veggiesama]

And these little arguments are exactly why there needs to be a subforum for house rules.