[MrSmiley]

Has this ever been clarified in canon? The NAN rules a good chunk of what was the western United States and Canada. They've split into their own countries, even: Ute, Sioux, Pueblo and so forth.

But, as of real life 2013, there are only a few million native americans in the United States and Canada. The overwhelming bulk of the population of the western United States and Canada, in the vast majority of areas, is non-native american. Does this mean there were mass expulsions of whites and hispanics and blacks and so forth? Did the non-native populations remain but become second class citizens? Or do they remain and enjoy nominally equal rights despite being ruled by a tiny minority of the population?

If there were expulsions, I can only imagine that the vast majority of major cities in the area are now virtual ghost towns and the populations of the NAN countries are extremely low. If there weren't expulsions, then I can't imagine how the NAN countries function without basically having an apartheid situation, with native americans enjoying vast privileges compared to non-natives.

I'm sure this has been clarified somewhere.

[Ramid]

Not all the NAN states were equally adamant about driving out the Anglos.

Some such as The Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council allowed anglos living in the territories seceded to them
by the Treaty to remain if they could proove any Amerindian blood what so ever, and or allowed non Amerinds to form their own tribes,

Also many of the NAN states opened their doors to immigration by metahumans expecially Salish Sidhe that allowed a mass Influx of
Elves no matter what their heritage.

Others such as the Sioux nation were much more hardline in their actions removing almost everyone who could not proove
full Blood Sioux Heritage.

I do remember that the NAN books did discuss this that many areas were much more wild and uninhabited than they are today.
While other areas expecially important Cities such as Vancouver Las Vegas etc, are little different than the Ucas sprawls you
can find.

Also decades have passed since the Nan States came into being so their population would have risen due to childbirths
and Immigration.


You can probably get Scans of the Original Native American States books I and II from Battleshop or driverhoughrp.com
Both books go into the details.

[Sahadir]

The Native American Nations are highly recommanded if you do run a campaign in NAN (I think vol. 1 covers the area of interest you) - they contain the history of those events (such as the forced immigration of Anglos from the Ute Nation, and the massacres of remianin Anglos by mobs), including the Anglos legal status in the various nations.

[Crimsondude]

Ramid's post explains most of it.

The most recent and direct coverage of this question was in Shadows of North America. It also mentioned that since Aztlan was a member of the Sovereign Tribal Council at the time the Treaty of Denver was signed that anyone of Mexican descent would have also been grandfathered in under the NAN. That is to say that there should have been a lot of empty space, but there is already a lot of empty space in the states and provinces comprising the NAN. The PCC only took over southern California in 2061.

But for the most part it's just something that demands a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief.

[Wakshaani]

Covered above, but, yeah, first is that bit that Latinos got grandfathered in, so a surprisingly large chunk of the population isn't what people think of when they hear 'Native American". There were also many people that were kept, or that moved in, that were "1/64th Cherokee" or the like, whiteboys who the NAN government looked the other way for due to their having some aspect, such as being a big scientist or having mojo.

"Hey, I want to apply for membership. I don't know what tribe."
"Do you have any documentation?"
"Well, no, but..."
"Denied."
"Wait!"
"What?"
"Well, I figure I gotta be part Indian. I mean, I can do this." *hands start to glow*
"Ahh. Clearly a Shaman of the, uhm. Let's go with Chickasaw. Take this letter down the hall and go to the green door. Welcome to the Nations, brother."

The assorted NAN nations had different levels of "Purity!" cries, with teh Ute being the most expulsion-happy, then the Sioux, muttermutter, and the PCC being the least trigger-happy. In some areas, people wouldn't, or couldn't, move, so the NAN allowed some to stay on by adopting them into tribes, or by letting them form new tribes, while others were set up on reservations, so that they could live in relative peace and follow their native customs, like cookouts and the Chicken Dance, and to maintain their own language in the wake of a general reculturization.

What you wind up with is a sort of blood-segregation, where those who have the most Native blood 'naturally' rise to the top, getting most positions of power and wealth, mixed-blood sorts who make up the majority of the population, and then people with no Native or Latino blood pooling arond the bottom rungs of society, if they even participate at all. When moving through the former Wyoming, for instance, you'll stumble onto the rare reservation with a couple hundred white people, living in ramshackle trailerhomes, growing crops and living off the land, trying not to cause any trouble.

The cities are still around, and filled with people (Vancouver! Las Vegas! Boise!) but the population was considerably lower than before. Mind you, it's been 60 years, and that, combined with the NAN being accepting of Meta immigration for a while, has boosted their numbers a bit. (They also tend to lie about thier population numbers, which the NAN books reported as fact, which resulted in much derision.)

Heck, a few weeks ago, I had a blue-eyed, blonde-haired Mr. Johnson to give the team a job. They figured he was Ares, but he was actually working for a NAN member. It's fun to play with perception.

[Crunch]

The decision of certain councils to allow metahumans regardless of ethnicity in added a fair bit of population. Groups like the Sinsearch and the Cascade Ork helped grow the population quickly.

[Silence]

Actually, if you can convince one of the Salish-Sidhe tribes to "grandfather" you in, you can get a bunch of friends and family in as a tribe.  Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow.  This can bite them in the rear, as happened with the Sinsearch breaking off to become Tir Tirnagre, or semi-bite them like the Cascade Orks, who run more smuggling than many organized crime families, but always kick a cut to the SSC.  A good way to look at it is that within the Salish-Sidhe Council, you've got a bunch of different tribes, few of which are "pure-bloods" (hence, tension with the Sioux is pretty much constant), so you've got a very loose confederation that only agrees on two things:  Tir Tirnagre needs to be spanked, hard and constantly, and the Sioux are dicks.  So, while they are a loose confederation, they actually have a military that gives the Sioux pause when thinking about invading them.  This is helped by how ridiculously easy it is to get a SSC SIN.

[farothel]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

[Michael Chandra]

Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow.

Uhm. I thought the Cascade Orks came to be when part of the Crows goblinized, and the Crows hated them so the Orks left and they still have their occasional skirmish since they hate each other's guts?

[Crunch]

Like what happened with the Cascade Orks, who were "grandfathered" in by the Cascade Crow.

Uhm. I thought the Cascade Orks came to be when part of the Crows goblinized, and the Crows hated them so the Orks left and they still have their occasional skirmish since they hate each other's guts?

I think that's more or less correct, but I seem to recall the Cascade Orks then being fairly open to integrating Non Native Orks who were willing to adopt Native culture. I could be misremembering though.

[MrSmiley]

Not all the NAN states were equally adamant about driving out the Anglos.

Some such as The Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council allowed anglos living in the territories seceded to them
by the Treaty to remain if they could proove any Amerindian blood what so ever, and or allowed non Amerinds to form their own tribes,

Also many of the NAN states opened their doors to immigration by metahumans expecially Salish Sidhe that allowed a mass Influx of
Elves no matter what their heritage.

Others such as the Sioux nation were much more hardline in their actions removing almost everyone who could not proove
full Blood Sioux Heritage.

I do remember that the NAN books did discuss this that many areas were much more wild and uninhabited than they are today.
While other areas expecially important Cities such as Vancouver Las Vegas etc, are little different than the Ucas sprawls you
can find.

Also decades have passed since the Nan States came into being so their population would have risen due to childbirths
and Immigration.


You can probably get Scans of the Original Native American States books I and II from Battleshop or driverhoughrp.com
Both books go into the details.

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I knew, or at least suspected, the answers to those questions could be found in one of the NAN books, but I didn't want to pay for the answer to just that one question when I was sure the answer would be floating out on the internet somewhere. I was hoping someone here would know and I'm glad that that is indeed the case.

As Crimsondude said, though, it's definitely something that requires a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief, above all considering they actually fragmented into completely different countries when the victory was won. Checking Wikipedia, a Sioux nation which only allows full-blooded Sioux to live there would amount to a country with around 170,000 people, maybe less. The area of the country they snatched away wasn't exactly dense with people to start with, but damn, how could a nation that thinly populated ever realistically hope to defend its borders against its neighbors, let alone field their own special forces outfit (the Wildcats)? Many towns and cities away from Sioux habitation would simply lose their entire population overnight. They might expand through birth rate in order to compete by the time of Shadowrun, but it would only make a dent if full-blooded Sioux started popping out babies left and right.

[Crunch]

how could a nation that thinly populated ever realistically hope to defend its borders against its neighbors

The answer to this question is in all seriousness, magic. Remember that the NAN came about essentially as a result of getting a magical WMD (In Daniel Howling Coyote and the Great Ghost Dance) that STILL can't really be duplicated 60 years later at a point when the USA was still laughing at "crystal wavers."

[Mirikon]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

This is a good point. The three waves of VITAS did a number on the population. We're talking Black Plague levels of death in some areas. Not as bad in most of the US, but it still wasn't pretty. Add to that the fact that large portions of the US even today is wide-open spaces, along with what other people have already said, and it becomes much more plausible. For instance, the majority of Oregon was basically depopulated by the various waves of VITAS and the war that brought the NAN into being, which is why the elves were able to step in and take over.

[Ramid]

You have to remember these nations had something that the U.S did not have and that was magic.

What use are fighter jets and tanks against Spirits and spell casters not to mention the awesome power of the Great Ghost Dance that caused volcanoes to explode caused massive storms and earthquakes that paralyzed the U.S

Had the Amerinds rebelled later once the rest of the world started catching up to them in the magic department their rebellion would have failed

By that time the U.S and Canada had other problems to deal with Vitas Secession of the CAS rise of the mega corps

[MrSmiley]

The answer to this question is in all seriousness, magic. Remember that the NAN came about essentially as a result of getting a magical WMD (In Daniel Howling Coyote and the Great Ghost Dance) that STILL can't really be duplicated 60 years later at a point when the USA was still laughing at "crystal wavers."

That's a tremendous advantage in 2018, but by 2050+ that particular arms race has changed dramatically. The UCAS has its own mages and shamans and otherwise 'Awakened' allies and would probably have a population thousands of times larger. Unless the Sioux are willing to use the Great Ghost Dance as their threat to every border dispute and every situation in which pressure is put upon them, and unless the Great Ghost Dance is truly so formidable that it can without fail overwhelm a rival that is now heavily competing in the very field (magic) that won things for them in the first war, the Sioux nation would by 2050-60 have to be a very thin rival indeed to its neighbors.