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Powered by Karma vs Powered by Nuyen Comparison

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Maddoux1

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« on: <08-13-13/0224:30> »
Out of respect for the original poster in the Rebalancing the Cost of Augmentation thread, I'm going to move this conversation here.

I've ran a few numbers, and while Decking isn't my strong suit in SR, I'd like thoughts on my math.  Please let me know where I am wrong.

If we take the Fairlight Excalibur, and upgrade its four Attributes (through programs), you'll have an attribute spread of 10/9/8/7, and it will cost 824,080 Nuyen.  Assuming that you are doing runs where you encounter an enemy with a die pool of 16 and you're outnumbered 3-1, you will make 15,000 Nuyen a run.  It will take you 55 runs to make this much Nuyen.  The Karma you earn goes towards upgrading your own Attributes and Skills, and maybe some qualities.

Playing an Elven Technomancer (highest Mental Attributes spread), who puts all of his Attribute Points (from Priority B) into the Mental Attributes, you can have the highest possible rating for Living Persona.  8 Attack, everything else is a 6.  Through submerging, you can increase everything by 3 (two for the specific Echoes and 1 for the Resonance (Program) Echoes).  So 11/9/9/9.  This is, obviously better than the Fairlight Excalibur.

So the Powered By Karma character caps out better than the Powered by Nuyen, but in order to do so has to build specifically for it.  But how much time does it take to get there?  55 runs?

Well, if we assume the same difficulty of the runs, you'll gain 6 karma per run.  It will take 85 Sessions to get there.  This is throwing everything into Submerging, with Karma going nowhere else.  Wait... that can't happen, can it?  We'd have to bring our Resonance up to submerge the seventh time.  It took us 15 to get here, so lets buy our Resonance up as high as we can as well.

Well, 200 Karma brings us up to 10.  255 gets us an 11 Resonance, which you can get if you have the Exceptional Attribute (Resonance).  This is a total of 563 Karma, so 94 sessions to max out.  You can only submerge 11 times, so we'll get our basic cap, +1.  11/8/8/8, if we put the program as Attack.  That is arguably better than the Excalibur, but it took a lot more sacrifice to get there.

Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength are all at their minimum. (1/2/1/1) and skills are at the C level.  That hasn't changed since game began for the Technomancer.  94 sessions in, and the Technomancer is a better device than the Deck that the Decker had 55 sessions in.  That far in, and the Technomancer has a Resonance Score of 9 and Submerged 8 times.

Is my math off, guys?  Or does it look like the Decker is getting the better deal there?  (Now the Technomancer has Complex Forms which make him cool, but just looking at this matter.)

Mäx

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« Reply #1 on: <08-13-13/0239:12> »
There's no limit how many times you can submerge or how high you can raise your resonance.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Maddoux1

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« Reply #2 on: <08-13-13/0246:24> »
I do not think that is accurate.  If there was no limit to Resonance or Magic, you wouldn't be able to take the Exceptional Attribute Quality for them.  The KARMA ADVANCEMENT TABLE FOR ATTRIBUTES table only goes to 11, and specifies that "numbers in parentheses () are only available to characters with the correct quality.".  Those two indicate that Resonance can only raise to 11.  You also cannot submerge a number of times greater than your Resonance Score.

But, if you can, to bring your Resonance to 15 and Submerge 15 times, it will take 173 sessions.  Your Device Rating will be fantastic, and you'll have the 11/9/9/9 Attribute Array and 5d6 Initiative Dice.  So, that's fantastic and beautiful, but you'll still be unable to be effective outside of the Matrix.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #3 on: <08-13-13/0249:42> »
Yep, Submersion and Initiation can keep on going. As your Resonance or Magic goes up, so does your maximum grade.

That Decker on the other hand has reached the absolute peak that he can ever achieve once he gets that Fairlight Excalibur.

At Submersion 15, you would be able to have a 21 Resonance (22 with Exceptional Attribute).
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Mäx

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« Reply #4 on: <08-13-13/0253:46> »
I do not think that is accurate.  If there was no limit to Resonance or Magic, you wouldn't be able to take the Exceptional Attribute Quality for them.
for chargen purposes there is limit, it just doesn't actually limit anything after chargen.
6+submersion grade with max submersion grade being resonance, creates an infinite loop.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Maddoux1

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« Reply #5 on: <08-13-13/0301:32> »
Lets say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct.

Is it cost effective?  If you're going to play the technomancer who competes with the Decker owning the Fairlight Excalibur, is waiting 173 sessions to reach the point that you're better worth the wait?  The Decker has been playing with his toy for 117 sessions.  Assuming 1 session a week, that's over two years of play that he's had the better equipment.

At that point, you begin buying other submersion abilities, more Resonance (Program) that the Decker has already purchased with Nuyen (can get all of them after one run), or the other 4 Echoes available right now, but the finances for the Decker have thrown him further and further into cool stuff.  1,750,000 Nuyen in those 117 sessions that the Decker used to catch up.

The Decker has also been able to spend his Karma to upgrade his own Attributes and Skills.

Is the "Infinite Loop" worth giving up  your ability to grow out?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #6 on: <08-13-13/0303:01> »
I do not think that is accurate.  If there was no limit to Resonance or Magic, you wouldn't be able to take the Exceptional Attribute Quality for them.
for chargen purposes there is limit, it just doesn't actually limit anything after chargen.
6+submersion grade with max submersion grade being resonance, creates an infinite loop.

Thus the only way you can actually hit your grade cap is to stop raising Resonance and/or Magic (I mention both since they work the same on that).
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Maddoux1

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« Reply #7 on: <08-13-13/0305:13> »
Fair enough, but is it worth it?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #8 on: <08-13-13/0306:51> »
If your games go long enough or your GM is being too stingy on pay-outs, yeah.

Less money gives Awakened/Emerged a major advantage over Tech-oriented.
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Maddoux1

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« Reply #9 on: <08-13-13/0315:30> »
So working three years and four months to reach that point is worth it?  Meanwhile the tech guy has made 2,587,500 Nuyen?

At this point, the Technomancer hasn't improved any skills, and still has 9 Physical Wound points.  I don't think I'd be willing to play that character...  sure, you'd be a beast in the Matrix, but outside a troll could sneeze on you and kill you.

firebug

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« Reply #10 on: <08-13-13/0321:57> »
First, my two cents on how Street- and Prime-level character gen affects this discussion.

I can't understand how someone could play a street-level game.  While the concept is appealing to me, because I like the gang-land, more gritty and less moral style of what a street-level game implies, since the only thing that changes is money, that automatically puts awakened characters at a massive advantage.  Even with things like foci and reagents and lodges to spend money on, an awakened character (especially your stereotypical Physical Adept) will always be more comfortable without nuyen than any mundane character who cannot rely on their skills alone.

Similarly, the jump to Prime Runner is the same way.  All you're doing it giving everyone more money, so if you designed it to be balanced for Augmented V. Awakened, then Prime Runner would unbalance it.  The creators had to know nuyen is a direct factor of a character's abilities, that's why it's a Priority you need to balance against other actual aspects of your character.  If it didn't matter, everyone would just start with the same flat amount and be comfortable.

Another issue I personally have with giving the characters more starting wealth would be that, as mundanes and the like are essentially powered by money and moreso, have a cap (as devices and augmentations only go so high).  And it's true that, as with that example with the TM, they'll generally progress quicker compared directly to things they have as reflections (the Samurai and the Physical Adept, the Decker and the TM).

Mainly though, I think it's a bad choice in general to take a character with a different progression and just try to build them the same way.  Ideally they should be going for different things.  In SR4 Technomancers were specialized and focused, and gained a few completely unique powers through Submersion, while the Hacker had all the programs within reach of him and the ability to contribute much, much more easily to physical combat.  In 5th, TMs are sorely lacking in material until Data Trails is released, so they aren't really good to compare directly to Deckers.  Even if you think they're good now, Data Trails will still undoubtedly change what a TM is capable of.  Also, they can often use their money to buy things like drones and upgrade the shit out of them, so they still have a place to use money to improve themselves.

I have not played a long-term game.  In fact most of the games I play are, sadly, one-offs and don't go anywhere.  As such I haven't experienced real character progression.  But I felt worried that, whenever I make an Adept (and had players express this as well) that the only thing worth spending Karma on is MAG and Initiation to actually be able to get more abilities, because that is there "main upgrade" like a Street Samurai getting better implants.  If the Adept is capable of spending his nuyen on his "secondary upgrades" like how the Samurai spends his Karma on skills and occasionally an Attribute, then it's not so bad.  Though aside from buying a bitchin' gun and some armor that makes you look like helghast, it's mostly foci to buy, and they still cost Karma.

That's what my issue is.  Do both archetypes have ways to spend both and also just one to improve themselves?

So working three years and four months to reach that point is worth it?  Meanwhile the tech guy has made 2,587,500 Nuyen?

At this point, the Technomancer hasn't improved any skills, and still has 9 Physical Wound points.  I don't think I'd be willing to play that character...  sure, you'd be a beast in the Matrix, but outside a troll could sneeze on you and kill you.

There's of course a bit more to it.  One thing is that along with the massively increased Resonance the TM also has more Drain Resistance and can use higher-level Complex Forms.  In that example the character would have what, 17 dice?  That's about six successes on average, which...  Hmm, no I still think Complex Forms suck.  At least you're rolling 17 dice to hit with a Level 6 Resonance Spike every turn.  Nope, that'd still be so much worse than just that same TM using Data Spike...
« Last Edit: <08-13-13/0329:06> by firebug »
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #11 on: <08-13-13/0323:36> »
And most of that money for the Decker has to be divided among advancement, replenishing consumable supplies, keeping lifestyle up and any number of other things. Not to mention that since that Technomancer doesn't need as much money himself, he can probably use that Cash-for-Karma that's been added to the Missions to speed himself up drastically.
« Last Edit: <08-13-13/0326:35> by All4BigGuns »
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firebug

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« Reply #12 on: <08-13-13/0333:05> »
My problem with trading Karma for Nuyen, more confusingly Nuyen for Karma, is that...  How the hell do you explain what is happening in-game?  The first one, sure, maybe you're just mysteriously getting more money and just not getting as much Karma (I mean, it's intangible).  I did see an explanation once about it being a creepy-ass spirit, which is badass.  But the second one?  "Uh, I tripped and dropped a credstick into the sewer but then when I turned around the ghost of Mr. Miyagi was there and imbued me with a higher Unarmed Skill".  Or is it like "I gave a bunch of money to charity, and the next day I woke up feeling like I could just go out and just learn the shit out of something, you know?!"
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #13 on: <08-13-13/0335:55> »
My problem with trading Karma for Nuyen, more confusingly Nuyen for Karma, is that...  How the hell do you explain what is happening in-game?  The first one, sure, maybe you're just mysteriously getting more money and just not getting as much Karma (I mean, it's intangible).  I did see an explanation once about it being a creepy-ass spirit, which is badass.  But the second one?  "Uh, I tripped and dropped a credstick into the sewer but then when I turned around the ghost of Mr. Miyagi was there and imbued me with a higher Unarmed Skill".  Or is it like "I gave a bunch of money to charity, and the next day I woke up feeling like I could just go out and just learn the shit out of something, you know?!"

Simple. Don't worry about it. It doesn't actually need explanation.
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Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

firebug

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« Reply #14 on: <08-13-13/0341:18> »
Really?  I mean, you're just mysteriously gaining or losing money.  I can see the exchange now.

"Crap, we could really use some money to fireproof our van to carry the hellhounds."  Says the magician.
"I spent my last pay on these guns."  The SS gestures to her assault rifle and sniper rifle.  "...And also on deez guns."  She says, flexing her swanky, newly-enhanced cyber arms.
"Damn.  I really wish I hadn't spend all my money on...  Something..."  The magician responds, and everyone is more than a little confused.

EDIT: I suppose you could just say they spend it on something like stocks or blow it all on internet porn.  And they are just also better than you because why not.
« Last Edit: <08-13-13/0344:21> by firebug »
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.